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HelpWe Need to Talk About India.
And I don't mean the country. Well, it's probably inevitable that we'll talk about the country - but I mainly mean the name. And in doing a search on this board I see the last time a discussion was had about India was back in... 2017, and the thread is archived.
India has jumped on-and-off the Top 1000 in the United States for a bit, with 2001 being its peak year (so I'm guessing a lot of Indias are graduating from college now). In England & Wales it's hovering around the Top 200 names, and in Spain it is trending (this surprised me). So this is hardly an obscure name in the western world.
Which brings me to... the implication.
A little over a year ago, I asked South Asians of BtN whether they thought non-Asians naming their daughters India was offensive. These were the poll results: https://www.behindthename.com/polls/347902
Going off that, I figured that people like me - white, wanting to rectify the atrocities of our ancestors and not appropriate cultures without consent - were still falling into the trap of telling former colonized peoples how they should feel about stuff (essentially). However: I cannot actually guarantee that only people with ancestry from the Indian subcontinent answered that poll, since I can't track that data. Looking back on that poll and realizing that the results might not be trustworthy made me think that maybe that's not a question for the polls, but the boards. (I'd initially trusted it because this was an earlier poll I'd asked - and one which I would definitely reword today, but still: https://www.behindthename.com/polls/311425)
So... BtN, what do we think of India as a personal name? Particularly on a non-Asian? I am especially interested in the opinions of those with South Asian ancestry, since they're potentially divided (just contrast the first poll's results with the most recent comment on the name India).
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Please rate my personal name lists:
www.behindthename.com/pnl/69381
www.behindthename.com/pnl/69381/117507
www.behindthename.com/pnl/69381/109399
www.behindthename.com/pnl/69381/132018
India has jumped on-and-off the Top 1000 in the United States for a bit, with 2001 being its peak year (so I'm guessing a lot of Indias are graduating from college now). In England & Wales it's hovering around the Top 200 names, and in Spain it is trending (this surprised me). So this is hardly an obscure name in the western world.
Which brings me to... the implication.
A little over a year ago, I asked South Asians of BtN whether they thought non-Asians naming their daughters India was offensive. These were the poll results: https://www.behindthename.com/polls/347902
Going off that, I figured that people like me - white, wanting to rectify the atrocities of our ancestors and not appropriate cultures without consent - were still falling into the trap of telling former colonized peoples how they should feel about stuff (essentially). However: I cannot actually guarantee that only people with ancestry from the Indian subcontinent answered that poll, since I can't track that data. Looking back on that poll and realizing that the results might not be trustworthy made me think that maybe that's not a question for the polls, but the boards. (I'd initially trusted it because this was an earlier poll I'd asked - and one which I would definitely reword today, but still: https://www.behindthename.com/polls/311425)
So... BtN, what do we think of India as a personal name? Particularly on a non-Asian? I am especially interested in the opinions of those with South Asian ancestry, since they're potentially divided (just contrast the first poll's results with the most recent comment on the name India).
***
Please rate my personal name lists:
www.behindthename.com/pnl/69381
www.behindthename.com/pnl/69381/117507
www.behindthename.com/pnl/69381/109399
www.behindthename.com/pnl/69381/132018
This message was edited 8/19/2022, 10:36 AM
Archived Thread - replies disabled
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Replies
When I think of the name India, I think of the British right-wing personality who, on national television, sneered at working-class people who give their kids place names like Brooklyn. Another guest on the show immediately piped up with “Isn’t your daughter named India?”, forcing the woman to backpedal mightily.
India is pretty common for white girls in England, and I strongly feel that it shouldn’t be.
India is pretty common for white girls in England, and I strongly feel that it shouldn’t be.
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I’m not trying to be racist, but honestly if I were to see the name India on somebody, I would assume they were African American or possibly Pacific Islander. It just seems more in line with the names I’ve seen used in those cultures.
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I’ve noticed the name India has become quite popular, and sometimes I’ve felt like it may be considered culture appropriation as quite a few white people are using it, but I’m not sure if I really have an opinion on this anymore. Country/place names are pretty popular now, and have been for a long time. I’m not the biggest fan of those names, but they’re okay I guess. I know an Indiana. I prefer Indigo or Indie.
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It's absolutely fine with no exceptions.
If you feel uncomfortable using it, don't use it. I could understand why one might feel comfortable or uncomfortable. If you're reality-checking a sense of moral anxiety or judgment ... I've got none. Given your stated concerns, I think that interest in the opinions of "those with South Asian ancestry" looks like seeking to work up beliefs about collective opinions (an oxymoron), in order to help justify that there are more and less moral ways for supposedly powerful "white people" to name babies. As if white identity means that when you name a baby girl something not traditional for "white people," you are "treating" other cultures well or badly and it matters to them? I'm just not seeing that...
I'd project common sense and goodwill onto the humans of India, and tend to presume it's most likely (unless they've been hit with the cultural brainwash of white special powers) that one would think it's funny, if any white people thought they had the power to hurt or offend by naming a child India. People name babies after things they think are worthy of admiration, and they tend to ignorantly romanticize what is foreign to them, and I'd figure a person of any different ethnicity and culture would understand that as well as I can. And also I'd expect they are free of delusions about white importance being Real - let alone existing in the personal names of individual white people, and potentially making them feel their ethnic identity has been offended. By some white person's name!
Cultural appropriation and exploitation happens, but I think naming a kid India ain't it.
If you feel uncomfortable using it, don't use it. I could understand why one might feel comfortable or uncomfortable. If you're reality-checking a sense of moral anxiety or judgment ... I've got none. Given your stated concerns, I think that interest in the opinions of "those with South Asian ancestry" looks like seeking to work up beliefs about collective opinions (an oxymoron), in order to help justify that there are more and less moral ways for supposedly powerful "white people" to name babies. As if white identity means that when you name a baby girl something not traditional for "white people," you are "treating" other cultures well or badly and it matters to them? I'm just not seeing that...
I'd project common sense and goodwill onto the humans of India, and tend to presume it's most likely (unless they've been hit with the cultural brainwash of white special powers) that one would think it's funny, if any white people thought they had the power to hurt or offend by naming a child India. People name babies after things they think are worthy of admiration, and they tend to ignorantly romanticize what is foreign to them, and I'd figure a person of any different ethnicity and culture would understand that as well as I can. And also I'd expect they are free of delusions about white importance being Real - let alone existing in the personal names of individual white people, and potentially making them feel their ethnic identity has been offended. By some white person's name!
Cultural appropriation and exploitation happens, but I think naming a kid India ain't it.
This message was edited 8/19/2022, 4:16 PM
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I'm Spanish, and the appearance of India on the Spain chart surprised me a little, but I think it's popular because of Spanish singer India Martínez, although it is a stage name and her real (compound) name is actually Jennifer Jéssica.
Place names aren't popular here (actually, I'd say they are rather dated, most of them are Marian titles... Lourdes, Fátima...), but I don't dislike this one - I just think it's strange due to its sudden trendiness and exoticism.
In the US, country/city names are somewhat popular in modern times (China, Ireland, Kenya, Cairo, Memphis, etc...) so I just think it isn't offensive, and it's just another place name trying to be trendy like others.
Place names aren't popular here (actually, I'd say they are rather dated, most of them are Marian titles... Lourdes, Fátima...), but I don't dislike this one - I just think it's strange due to its sudden trendiness and exoticism.
In the US, country/city names are somewhat popular in modern times (China, Ireland, Kenya, Cairo, Memphis, etc...) so I just think it isn't offensive, and it's just another place name trying to be trendy like others.
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It hasn't been that long ago actually. There was a fairly long discussion of it within the last year or so, don't know why that wouldn't come up in search.
I think it's a bit strange to use country names, but it's not really my place to decide whether it's offensive or not, and I do like some in theory like Columbia; my associations with it as a name are Scarlett, Asia, and Indigo. I also think of India ink. It mainly seems kitschy to me.
I think the sound itself is trending. Indie, Indiana, and Indigo have also risen a bit recently (in the US), as far as I know. Do I think it's worse than Indiana?...Idk, not really? Maybe Indigo is less offensive because it's less tied to identity but ultimately they have the same etymology.
I think it's a bit strange to use country names, but it's not really my place to decide whether it's offensive or not, and I do like some in theory like Columbia; my associations with it as a name are Scarlett, Asia, and Indigo. I also think of India ink. It mainly seems kitschy to me.
I think the sound itself is trending. Indie, Indiana, and Indigo have also risen a bit recently (in the US), as far as I know. Do I think it's worse than Indiana?...Idk, not really? Maybe Indigo is less offensive because it's less tied to identity but ultimately they have the same etymology.
This message was edited 8/19/2022, 10:43 AM
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When I think about Indigo, I think about Eliza Lucas, and then I think about plantations in SC, then I think about slavery, and then I think I don't want to use Indigo as a name.
That's certainly further removed than India is though. I doubt people who weren't raised in SC would know who Eliza Lucas is. Actually, most people there probably don't know.
That's certainly further removed than India is though. I doubt people who weren't raised in SC would know who Eliza Lucas is. Actually, most people there probably don't know.
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Huh. Yeah, that seems relatively obscure/specific. I think of it as a plant name comparable to Saffron (or maybe Magnolia if I associated southern culture specifically?) but slightly more new agey because of "Indigo children" or rainbows. I feel like a lot of people wouldn't even know it's a flower or specific type of dye? That it's probably most recognized as being a color in the rainbow.
I do vaguely associate it with the ocean (like sea trade) and clothing, though.
...either way, yeah, I can't imagine anyone getting offended about it unlike a place/nationality/religious name.
I do vaguely associate it with the ocean (like sea trade) and clothing, though.
...either way, yeah, I can't imagine anyone getting offended about it unlike a place/nationality/religious name.
This message was edited 8/20/2022, 2:05 AM
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I think it’s gross for a white person to use it. The context makes it unusable to anyone who actively doesn’t want to reinforce colonialist ideas.
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India is itself an English name imposed by the colonial power on the country. The name of the country in Hindi is Bhārat, and according to the Wikipedia article on the country most of the other languages of India use a form of Bhārat. (Someone tell me if that is not correct.)
So this isn't "cultural appropriation" because the name doesn't come from Indian culture. It's hard for me to imagine families of 100% South Asian descent even wanting to name a daughter India.
I think your poll isn't too far off. In my personal experience the % of people from a particular group who think having the general culture use a name associated with that group is offensive or "cultural appropriation" isn't very large. Certainly in regards to the use of Cohen as a given name by those without Jewish affiliations, you always get a few people on name boards who say this is highly offensive, but very few Jewish people I know agree with them. I think most people with South Asian ancestry just wouldn't care one way or the other about people anywhere naming children India.
So this isn't "cultural appropriation" because the name doesn't come from Indian culture. It's hard for me to imagine families of 100% South Asian descent even wanting to name a daughter India.
I think your poll isn't too far off. In my personal experience the % of people from a particular group who think having the general culture use a name associated with that group is offensive or "cultural appropriation" isn't very large. Certainly in regards to the use of Cohen as a given name by those without Jewish affiliations, you always get a few people on name boards who say this is highly offensive, but very few Jewish people I know agree with them. I think most people with South Asian ancestry just wouldn't care one way or the other about people anywhere naming children India.
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I’m Jewish and most Jewish people I know who I’ve discussed Cohen with think it’s offensive, just because it’sa particularly important name.
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Yeah, I'm Jewish and I do feel weird about people randomly naming their child Cohen. I don't think I would necessarily be highly offended by it, but it would feel very strange to me if I met a Gentile named Cohen. I can't say I'm a fan of the idea.
This message was edited 9/12/2022, 6:29 PM
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I think India is an attractive sounding name. I've run across it a few times, always on black women. I don't think it's popular with white people at all. the Gone With the Wind character (who was not actually a terribly important character to the story except for one incident) notwithstanding.
I would also like to point out that India is the Latin? Greek? anyway, it's the European-coined name for the country/subcotinent. I don't know what the place is called by its non-English-speaking residents, actually, though that would be interesting.
I don't think that using the name of a country is offensive or should be taken as appropriation, as place names overall are and hav been quite popular.
But my experience is that it's nearly always white people who get worked up about this kind of thing, and like you said, it's easy to end up telling other people what they ought to be offended over and basically coming off as a wannabe White Savior. Not calling you that or accusing you of it, just agreeing.
I would also like to point out that India is the Latin? Greek? anyway, it's the European-coined name for the country/subcotinent. I don't know what the place is called by its non-English-speaking residents, actually, though that would be interesting.
I don't think that using the name of a country is offensive or should be taken as appropriation, as place names overall are and hav been quite popular.
But my experience is that it's nearly always white people who get worked up about this kind of thing, and like you said, it's easy to end up telling other people what they ought to be offended over and basically coming off as a wannabe White Savior. Not calling you that or accusing you of it, just agreeing.
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Bhārat Gaṇarājya is another name for India, but I think it's not universally used in India? Also there's Hindustan (Hindu and India are based off the same Sanskrit word, Sindhu referring to the Indus river), which seems old-fashioned to me but maybe some Indians still use it...
This message was edited 8/19/2022, 10:04 AM
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I'm white, living in a former British colony with quite a large Indian population.
If I recall, the last Viceroy of India (Lord Mountbatten, a rather shady character on the whole) had two daughters, one of whom named her own daughter India. This would have put the name in the public eye, especially in the UK. Granted, he did hand India the country over to its own people (not to mention facilitating the existence of Pakistan, an example of separateness rather than tolerance). But I find it uncomfortable as a human name, and I wouldn't expect to find a person of India descent using it for a child. A person of non-Indian descent, so much the worse.
ETA if India is used as a given name in the USA, could this be a reference to the term formerly used for Native Americans? That would be unfortunate.
If I recall, the last Viceroy of India (Lord Mountbatten, a rather shady character on the whole) had two daughters, one of whom named her own daughter India. This would have put the name in the public eye, especially in the UK. Granted, he did hand India the country over to its own people (not to mention facilitating the existence of Pakistan, an example of separateness rather than tolerance). But I find it uncomfortable as a human name, and I wouldn't expect to find a person of India descent using it for a child. A person of non-Indian descent, so much the worse.
ETA if India is used as a given name in the USA, could this be a reference to the term formerly used for Native Americans? That would be unfortunate.
This message was edited 8/19/2022, 8:28 AM
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This post made me laugh... I'm a citizen of a former British colony, and what we learned about Lord Mountbatten was that he basically left India & Pakistan a bloody mess before hightailing it back to his English mansion. Zero transition plans, stoking the fires of ethnic division and then poof'ed.
To the original topic, with what we know today about sensitivity and cultural appropriation, I don't think people should naming their children after entire regions they have zero ethnic or social ties to. That goes for names like China, Asia, Syria etc. And Dakota.
To the original topic, with what we know today about sensitivity and cultural appropriation, I don't think people should naming their children after entire regions they have zero ethnic or social ties to. That goes for names like China, Asia, Syria etc. And Dakota.
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