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ArchivesMaria, Mariam and Marian
in reply to a message by Cleveland Kent Evans
I have hard of the accusative case theory as well, but I'm afraid, this is no sufficient answer. The name MARIA does appear in the *Greek* New Testament as well as MARIAM: read Mt 27,55 (Maria) and 28,1 (Mariam), nominative case both times. (This is Mary Magdalene; Jesus' mother is called MARIA only in an old Greek manuscript, not in the official text: Lk 2,19. The sister of Lazarus is referred to as MARIA, MARIAN and MARIAM.
So I do not quite see, how a Latin translation would have influenced this. To me it looks like MARIA and MARIAM (and MARIAN) were used as Greek forms of the Hebrew MIRYAM. But since when?
So I do not quite see, how a Latin translation would have influenced this. To me it looks like MARIA and MARIAM (and MARIAN) were used as Greek forms of the Hebrew MIRYAM. But since when?
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When you refer to the "Greek" New Testament, are you talking about modern Greek or the original Greek of New Testament times? Does "Maria" appear in the very oldest versions of Mt 27,55 that we have?
And since this is inconsistent even when you are referring to the same person in the same Gospel, why couldn't the Maria form simply be a transcription error in Mt 27, 55?
And since this is inconsistent even when you are referring to the same person in the same Gospel, why couldn't the Maria form simply be a transcription error in Mt 27, 55?
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As Mike pointed out, I am not talking about a modern Greek New Testament, but the Novum Testamentum Graece by Nestle Aland 26th edition. Age of course is the major criterion to decide what was the original text, but in a particular case the best text may not be the oldest one. But yes: from what I know about the history of the New Testament text, MARIA does appear in the oldest versions Mt 27,56 (not 55, my mistake!).
Transcription error? I don't believe so. It's the job of textual criticism to wipe out such errors. Latin versions of parts of the New Testament appear in the late 4th century, and we have relevant Greek manuscripts from that time. But I just can't imagine, how a Latin translation would have influenced the Greek text.
I think all those NT Marys were called MIRYAM in every-day life. Greek versions of their names would be in question as soon as they got in touch with the Roman authorities. So what would Joseph have said, when he was registered in the Roman tax lists? Name of your wife? - Mariam / Maria / Marian? The list doesn't exist any more, some say it never did. Too bad!
That's why I asked, whether there are possibly any persons in antiquity before NT times, who are referred to as MARIA. All I could find is „Maria the alchemist“. She is said to have been a pupil of the (obviously legendary) Alchemist Ostanes (or Osthanes), the court-magician of Xerxes (as the story has it). But I don’t know, when and in what language those documents were written. So this proof for Maria may be useless.
Can you state any sources that back up the Latin "accusative case theory"?
Transcription error? I don't believe so. It's the job of textual criticism to wipe out such errors. Latin versions of parts of the New Testament appear in the late 4th century, and we have relevant Greek manuscripts from that time. But I just can't imagine, how a Latin translation would have influenced the Greek text.
I think all those NT Marys were called MIRYAM in every-day life. Greek versions of their names would be in question as soon as they got in touch with the Roman authorities. So what would Joseph have said, when he was registered in the Roman tax lists? Name of your wife? - Mariam / Maria / Marian? The list doesn't exist any more, some say it never did. Too bad!
That's why I asked, whether there are possibly any persons in antiquity before NT times, who are referred to as MARIA. All I could find is „Maria the alchemist“. She is said to have been a pupil of the (obviously legendary) Alchemist Ostanes (or Osthanes), the court-magician of Xerxes (as the story has it). But I don’t know, when and in what language those documents were written. So this proof for Maria may be useless.
Can you state any sources that back up the Latin "accusative case theory"?
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I don't understand your comment about "it is the job of textual criticism to wipe out such errors." There weren't "textual critics" back in the 4th century. If the mistake was made before the creation of the earliest copies that are still in existence, it would still be in the text we have. Textual critics don't change the printed Greek text unless they have alternate written sources. I would also assume that many literate people in New Testament times would know both Greek and Latin, so it seems perfectly reasonable to me that knowing Latin could influence the sort of name forms or variations one would come up with in a Greek manuscript of the time.
But the only sources I have for the Latin accusative case theory are name dictionaries. What you need here is to consult someone who is a Biblical scholar who is very familiar with New Testament Greek.
But the only sources I have for the Latin accusative case theory are name dictionaries. What you need here is to consult someone who is a Biblical scholar who is very familiar with New Testament Greek.
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I must admit: the deeper I dig into this, the more confused I get. Your comments sure helped me to sort a few things out, but once more I realised how little I know about naming practice in Israel/Palestine between 200 BCE and 400 CE. I still have no idea how the form MARIA slipped into the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, whether it could be looked upon as Greek as well as Latin and when this may have happened. One more evidence for a Latin influence would be the male name MARIUS, which makes it easy to assume, that Maria should be the feminine form. In later centuries this mistake was made the other way round, I understand.
So thanks for your help and clever thinking! I'll make a new post if I dig up anything more.
One thing I'd like to deal more with is the question: according to what rules did the Greeks adopt foreign names to their own language. I should think the translators of the Septuagint only applied what was in use before, when they changed Hebrew names into Greek. Maybe the problem of transcription and ancient Greek and Hebrew pronuciation comes in here. I remember the vivid discussion between Pavlos und the other guy about the question, how close the scholarly pronunciation of Ancient Greek is to what it actually sounded like back then.
So thanks for your help and clever thinking! I'll make a new post if I dig up anything more.
One thing I'd like to deal more with is the question: according to what rules did the Greeks adopt foreign names to their own language. I should think the translators of the Septuagint only applied what was in use before, when they changed Hebrew names into Greek. Maybe the problem of transcription and ancient Greek and Hebrew pronuciation comes in here. I remember the vivid discussion between Pavlos und the other guy about the question, how close the scholarly pronunciation of Ancient Greek is to what it actually sounded like back then.
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In reply to your question: "according to what rules did the Greeks adopt foreign names to their own language.":
Although the Greeks before christianity were using just a few foreign names among the over 28000 names of Greek origin (www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk), that changed dramatically after their conversion to christianity, when they had to start using foreign, mainly hebrew, names.
This is because of a 4th century AD law of the Christian Orthodox church of the eastern Roman Empire, (known as "Byzantine Empire"), according to which every baby must get baptized to christianity, in order for the Greeks to start using only biblical or Christian names, facing heavy punishments if not done so. The law ("Neara 116"), was part of a group of laws used by the Christians until 10th century AD to force the Greeks to lose their "Hellenism" and become Christians.
Unfortunately that law is still in use in Greece, luckily without the punishment… :)
References: Trombley Frank R.: "Hellenic Religion and Christianization, 370-529", Vol. 1, Leiden, 1993
Jaeger Werner: "Early Christianity and Greek Paideia", N.Y., 1961
Pharr C. "The Theodosian Code", Princeton, 1952
Boyd William K.: "The Eclesiastical Edicts of The Theodosian Code", N.Y., 1905
Krueger Paul: "Corpus Juris Civilis. Codex Justinianus", Berlin, 1954
Adeney Walter: "The Greek and Eastern Churches" N.Y., 1928
Baron d'Holback Paul Heinrich Dietrich: "Christianity Unveiled", London, 1819
Baur F.C.: "The Church History of the first Three Centuries" London, 1878
Although the Greeks before christianity were using just a few foreign names among the over 28000 names of Greek origin (www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk), that changed dramatically after their conversion to christianity, when they had to start using foreign, mainly hebrew, names.
This is because of a 4th century AD law of the Christian Orthodox church of the eastern Roman Empire, (known as "Byzantine Empire"), according to which every baby must get baptized to christianity, in order for the Greeks to start using only biblical or Christian names, facing heavy punishments if not done so. The law ("Neara 116"), was part of a group of laws used by the Christians until 10th century AD to force the Greeks to lose their "Hellenism" and become Christians.
Unfortunately that law is still in use in Greece, luckily without the punishment… :)
References: Trombley Frank R.: "Hellenic Religion and Christianization, 370-529", Vol. 1, Leiden, 1993
Jaeger Werner: "Early Christianity and Greek Paideia", N.Y., 1961
Pharr C. "The Theodosian Code", Princeton, 1952
Boyd William K.: "The Eclesiastical Edicts of The Theodosian Code", N.Y., 1905
Krueger Paul: "Corpus Juris Civilis. Codex Justinianus", Berlin, 1954
Adeney Walter: "The Greek and Eastern Churches" N.Y., 1928
Baron d'Holback Paul Heinrich Dietrich: "Christianity Unveiled", London, 1819
Baur F.C.: "The Church History of the first Three Centuries" London, 1878
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Thank you very much for the information and the reference books!
My question was a bit inaccurate, I'm afraid. I shouldn't have asked about "the Greeks", but rather about the process of Hellenization of (part of) the Jewish culture. The Septuagint obviously reflects this: The Hebrew names in the bible were shaped into a Greek-like form, which supposedly existed before. A 3rd cent. BCE Jew in Alexandria would probably call his children Elisabeth and Yoanan instead of Elisheva and Yokhanan. (I have no idea, if this is true.)
Now going back (or ratehr forth) to the 4th cent. law you are talking about, we would find Elisabeth again, but now Yoannes instead of Yoanan. So the rules may have changed …
This is what I'd like to know more about. Maybe I can get hold of one of the books you mention. So thanks once more!
My question was a bit inaccurate, I'm afraid. I shouldn't have asked about "the Greeks", but rather about the process of Hellenization of (part of) the Jewish culture. The Septuagint obviously reflects this: The Hebrew names in the bible were shaped into a Greek-like form, which supposedly existed before. A 3rd cent. BCE Jew in Alexandria would probably call his children Elisabeth and Yoanan instead of Elisheva and Yokhanan. (I have no idea, if this is true.)
Now going back (or ratehr forth) to the 4th cent. law you are talking about, we would find Elisabeth again, but now Yoannes instead of Yoanan. So the rules may have changed …
This is what I'd like to know more about. Maybe I can get hold of one of the books you mention. So thanks once more!
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I suspect that names like Maria or Mariam could have been in use among Hellenized Jews. I'm not sure how "Hellenized" the Jews were at the start of the common era... Did they speak Greek, use Greek names? Were biblical names like Andrew and Stephen nicknames, or merely translations of Aramaic names added by the gospel writers?
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According to online versions of the original Greek:
Matthew has Mariam (1:20) for Jesus's mother and Maria (27:56) for the other people named Mary.
Mark only refers to Jesus's mother in the genitive as Marias (6:3). Others are called Maria (15:40).
Luke calls the mother Mariam in all cases except for Acts 1:14 where she is Maria. The others (including Lazarus's sister) he calls Maria.
John doesn't refer to the mother by name. He calls Lazarus's sister Maria or Marian (or is that an inflection?) and all the others Maria.
Romans 16:6 has a Mariam.
Matthew has Mariam (1:20) for Jesus's mother and Maria (27:56) for the other people named Mary.
Mark only refers to Jesus's mother in the genitive as Marias (6:3). Others are called Maria (15:40).
Luke calls the mother Mariam in all cases except for Acts 1:14 where she is Maria. The others (including Lazarus's sister) he calls Maria.
John doesn't refer to the mother by name. He calls Lazarus's sister Maria or Marian (or is that an inflection?) and all the others Maria.
Romans 16:6 has a Mariam.
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