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ArchivesRe: Segolene
in reply to a message by raindancing
Hmm ... thanks, Raindancing. I'm no expert, but I can't actually see how Sieglinde could morph into such a different form. Perhaps Miss (now Mrs!) Claire's suggestion of rye is more feasible.
All the best.
All the best.
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Personally I trust the Sieglinde -> Ségolène derivation.
I saw this with quite a number of names of Germanic origin, i.e. that the French name variant has a form that for a speaker of a Germanic language sounds very strange. How, for example, do you arrive at Guillaume starting with Wilhelm? But I don't think that these derivations are in doubt.
I saw this with quite a number of names of Germanic origin, i.e. that the French name variant has a form that for a speaker of a Germanic language sounds very strange. How, for example, do you arrive at Guillaume starting with Wilhelm? But I don't think that these derivations are in doubt.
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Funny, but Guillaume - Wilhelm doesn't bother me at all! I can do the sound changes easily. But that S that should be a Z, the o in the middle, the ie and i with the same sounds in German but not in French ... if you take the meanings, anyone would rather be a Sieglinde than a field of rye, but that's seldom relevant. Claire doesn't appear very often any more, but if she does it would be interesting to see if she has anything to add.
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Well, there really should be no problem in believing that the "S" sound could change to a "Z" or vice versa over time. These are very similar sounds phonetically; the English "z" is simply the "voiced" form of "s", I believe. There are plenty of examples of these two sounds being substituted for one another. In Latin American Spanish, the "z" sound has been replaced by "s", so Hispanic parents in the USA feel free to do respellings such as Jezzica for Jessica. In Reaney & Wilson's A Dictionary of English Surnames, all six of the native English surnames that start with "Z" are explained as variations of more common surnames that start with "S".
As for the "o" -- I don't know how that particular letter would have come to be there, but the fact that there is a middle syllable may simply show that the name came into French from ancient Germanic instead of from modern German. Both Hanks & Hodges' A Dictionary of Surnames and my Dutch given name dictionary (by van der Schaar) give the most ancient Germanic form of Sieg- as "Sigi-". German Names (a surname dictionary) by Hans Bahlow also gives several ancient forms of Sieg- names with middle syllables, such as Segimundus for Sigmund, Sigeman for Siegmann, and Segewin and Sigewin for Siegwein. So it seems likely to me that both the modern German Sieglinde and the modern French Segolene are derived from a very ancient Germanic form which was something like "Sigilindi".
As for the "o" -- I don't know how that particular letter would have come to be there, but the fact that there is a middle syllable may simply show that the name came into French from ancient Germanic instead of from modern German. Both Hanks & Hodges' A Dictionary of Surnames and my Dutch given name dictionary (by van der Schaar) give the most ancient Germanic form of Sieg- as "Sigi-". German Names (a surname dictionary) by Hans Bahlow also gives several ancient forms of Sieg- names with middle syllables, such as Segimundus for Sigmund, Sigeman for Siegmann, and Segewin and Sigewin for Siegwein. So it seems likely to me that both the modern German Sieglinde and the modern French Segolene are derived from a very ancient Germanic form which was something like "Sigilindi".
This message was edited 4/23/2007, 8:10 AM
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So it would hinge on when the name was first used by speakers of what is now French ... and it's unlikely we'll ever know. Ca va.
I'm delighted to know about the s-z substitutions in LASpanish! Could that be an explanation for some odd-looking plural forms that I've been seeing, admittedly on TV adverts and music videos (ah, the joys of teenage children!) - can't think of a genuine one off-hand, but something like turnipz, although the sound would be an s, not a z. Cabbagez I can see, turnipz I can't! Or it might just be boring old creativity again ...
I'm delighted to know about the s-z substitutions in LASpanish! Could that be an explanation for some odd-looking plural forms that I've been seeing, admittedly on TV adverts and music videos (ah, the joys of teenage children!) - can't think of a genuine one off-hand, but something like turnipz, although the sound would be an s, not a z. Cabbagez I can see, turnipz I can't! Or it might just be boring old creativity again ...
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