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ArchivesRe: This was very helpful. Thanks!
in reply to a message by Andy ;—)
You have a good point with the usage (and far be it from me to dispute the kleine Pauly!), but common plants will have names whether they're extant in medicine and mythology or not. The Romans borrowed ion (no digamma) at a later date to talk about dark-blue stones, incidentally. This is found in Pliny the Elder.
You'd definitely have to cross-check with Sanskrit (which I don't know!), perhaps some early Celtic or Germanic languages (which I also don't know) to be sure about the derivation. I had a look at the big etymological dictionaries for Latin and Greek, and both agreed that the words viola and (w)ion probably derive from the same source. Citations:
Chantraine, P. Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue grecque: histoire des mots, volume 1. Paris: Éditions Klincksieck, 1983, p. 466 AND
Ernout, A., and A. Meillet. Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue latine: histoire des mots. Fourth edition. Paris: Éditions Klincksieck, 1979, p. 738.
Re Latin > Greek being "overdone," it certainly isn't in linguistics or classics, but it pops up a lot in more popular media, including this site! I haven't got any good online sources for Indo-European linguistic development, but here are a couple seriously useful and current books:
Fortson, B. Indo-European Language and Culture: an introduction. Blackwell Publishing, 2004
Sihler, A. A New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin. New York: Oxford University Press, 1995.
Watkins, C., ed. The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, 2nd edition. Houghton Mifflin, 2000. (Cheap in paperback! Includes lots and lots of names!)
You'd definitely have to cross-check with Sanskrit (which I don't know!), perhaps some early Celtic or Germanic languages (which I also don't know) to be sure about the derivation. I had a look at the big etymological dictionaries for Latin and Greek, and both agreed that the words viola and (w)ion probably derive from the same source. Citations:
Chantraine, P. Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue grecque: histoire des mots, volume 1. Paris: Éditions Klincksieck, 1983, p. 466 AND
Ernout, A., and A. Meillet. Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue latine: histoire des mots. Fourth edition. Paris: Éditions Klincksieck, 1979, p. 738.
Re Latin > Greek being "overdone," it certainly isn't in linguistics or classics, but it pops up a lot in more popular media, including this site! I haven't got any good online sources for Indo-European linguistic development, but here are a couple seriously useful and current books:
Fortson, B. Indo-European Language and Culture: an introduction. Blackwell Publishing, 2004
Sihler, A. A New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin. New York: Oxford University Press, 1995.
Watkins, C., ed. The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, 2nd edition. Houghton Mifflin, 2000. (Cheap in paperback! Includes lots and lots of names!)
This message was edited 8/11/2006, 12:36 PM
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Replies
Good point!
Thanks a lot for taking the time to delve into this question.
You are right: a common plant must have a name. But names do change, even with common plants. So it could well be possible that the Romans (or rather some pre-Roman Italic tribe?) had a different name for the plant which was later replaced by the Greek expression - along with its mythological and practical implications.
This is bare theory, I must admit, and I would have to find other examples and tangiable evidence.
Unfortunately I am packing up my whole house at the moment (including a family of six) to set off for the States for one year two weeks from now. This will also keep me from taking a look at the books you mention (thanks for that!) - unless I get to visit a good library. But maybe I'll take a book or two on Indo-European languages with me.
It was nice talking to you - thanks again!
Thanks a lot for taking the time to delve into this question.
You are right: a common plant must have a name. But names do change, even with common plants. So it could well be possible that the Romans (or rather some pre-Roman Italic tribe?) had a different name for the plant which was later replaced by the Greek expression - along with its mythological and practical implications.
This is bare theory, I must admit, and I would have to find other examples and tangiable evidence.
Unfortunately I am packing up my whole house at the moment (including a family of six) to set off for the States for one year two weeks from now. This will also keep me from taking a look at the books you mention (thanks for that!) - unless I get to visit a good library. But maybe I'll take a book or two on Indo-European languages with me.
It was nice talking to you - thanks again!
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Well, it was quite a bit of fun discussing this with you. I hope that the move goes well, and that you enjoy your time over here!
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