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ArchivesRe: I beg to differ...
in reply to a message by ClaudiaS
I can't convince you how to pronounce my own language, that's okay.
I've watched Brazillian TV my whole life, I talk to Brazillians all the time, and I've never percieved their "R"s as the English "H" - so cannot be not the "standard pronunciation of R in most parts of Brazil".
The Wikipedia page clearly states that the /ʁ/ pronunciation is the most correct, whether you are in Europe, in Brazil, or in Africa. My grandparents roll their Rs much more than I do, in the end of the day it's an R.
Imagine and English teacher saying to her Portuguese students: the "th" sound doesn't exist in our language, but some English-speakers say it as "d" so let's take that pronounciation as our standard.
spring, isla, sophie, embla-jane, zephyra, vita, clementine & brice, remi, archer, louis, evan, knox, valentine, lucan, storm, henry-john.
I've watched Brazillian TV my whole life, I talk to Brazillians all the time, and I've never percieved their "R"s as the English "H" - so cannot be not the "standard pronunciation of R in most parts of Brazil".
The Wikipedia page clearly states that the /ʁ/ pronunciation is the most correct, whether you are in Europe, in Brazil, or in Africa. My grandparents roll their Rs much more than I do, in the end of the day it's an R.
Imagine and English teacher saying to her Portuguese students: the "th" sound doesn't exist in our language, but some English-speakers say it as "d" so let's take that pronounciation as our standard.
spring, isla, sophie, embla-jane, zephyra, vita, clementine & brice, remi, archer, louis, evan, knox, valentine, lucan, storm, henry-john.
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Replies
I don't know what you may or may not have heard, any more than you know what I may or may not have heard. Certainly, people's perceptions of sounds are colored by their native language(s) and their experiences. But I am still very curious where on the Wikipedia page it clearly states that "the /ʁ/ pronunciation is the most correct, whether you are in Europe, in Brazil, or in Africa." I have read the page carefully three times and don't see that anywhere. Please enlighten me.
Furthermore, I went to the Wikipedia page on Portuguese dialects, thinking that might give more detail. It says:
"The pronunciation of syllable-initial and syllable-final r varies considerably with dialect. See Guttural R in Portuguese, for details. In summary, syllable-initial ⟨r⟩ and doubled ⟨rr⟩ are pronounced as a guttural [ʁ] in most cities in Portugal, but as a traditional trill [r] in rural Portugal. In Brazil, this sound is normally pronounced as an unvoiced guttural ([x], [χ] or [h]), which is also used for ⟨r⟩ at the end of syllables (except in the caipira dialect, which uses an alveolar approximant [ɹ]). ⟨r⟩ at the ends of words in Brazil is normally silent or barely pronounced."
I don't see how anyone can read this and come away with the conclusions that: 1) The [ʁ] pronunciation is most correct in Brazil; 2) that using [x], [χ] and [h] in place of [ʁ] is substandard; or 3) that [x], [χ] and [h] are really just a kind of R.
At the "end of the day," the fact is that a native English speaker hearing a Brazilian say the name Renzo in normal speech, hears "Henzo." I'm a native English speaker. That is what I hear. I've asked other English-speakers and that is what they hear as well. Therefore, it is correct to tell an English-speaker that the Brazilian pronunciation of Renzo is approximately Henzo. I don't know what a Portuguese hears when a Brazilian speaks. That is beside the point.
Furthermore, I went to the Wikipedia page on Portuguese dialects, thinking that might give more detail. It says:
"The pronunciation of syllable-initial and syllable-final r varies considerably with dialect. See Guttural R in Portuguese, for details. In summary, syllable-initial ⟨r⟩ and doubled ⟨rr⟩ are pronounced as a guttural [ʁ] in most cities in Portugal, but as a traditional trill [r] in rural Portugal. In Brazil, this sound is normally pronounced as an unvoiced guttural ([x], [χ] or [h]), which is also used for ⟨r⟩ at the end of syllables (except in the caipira dialect, which uses an alveolar approximant [ɹ]). ⟨r⟩ at the ends of words in Brazil is normally silent or barely pronounced."
I don't see how anyone can read this and come away with the conclusions that: 1) The [ʁ] pronunciation is most correct in Brazil; 2) that using [x], [χ] and [h] in place of [ʁ] is substandard; or 3) that [x], [χ] and [h] are really just a kind of R.
At the "end of the day," the fact is that a native English speaker hearing a Brazilian say the name Renzo in normal speech, hears "Henzo." I'm a native English speaker. That is what I hear. I've asked other English-speakers and that is what they hear as well. Therefore, it is correct to tell an English-speaker that the Brazilian pronunciation of Renzo is approximately Henzo. I don't know what a Portuguese hears when a Brazilian speaks. That is beside the point.
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