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ArchivesRe: Legitimacy
in reply to a message by Lumia
Could I ask a possibly related question? Sure, legitimacy can be defined; but what use is such a definition? When a culture gives free choice to use spellings for their own names, and these spellings are respected by all authority; when some subcultures freely invent names along with their spellings (i.e., when a subculture likes names and spellings which have no prior attestation); in such cultures/subcultures, which internal phenomenon cares about the legitimacy of these names?
And, why is the term legitimacy the correct term for this concept: shouldn't the word legitimacy be more about acceptance in the appropriate culture, not about its acceptance by the educated, or even literate, subsection?
Just confused.
And, why is the term legitimacy the correct term for this concept: shouldn't the word legitimacy be more about acceptance in the appropriate culture, not about its acceptance by the educated, or even literate, subsection?
Just confused.
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Replies
CK Evans argued that the concept of legitimacy was inappropiate when speaking about English names because in most (if not all the English speaking countries) any name can be registered. Legitimate is sometimes synonym of legal (in this case, CK Evans will be absolutely right), but other times has other meanings and one of those meanings if the used when the people talk about legitimacy in onomastics.
I can't speak for all the languages and cultures, obviously, but in the case of the languages that I know in some degree (all of them European) the concept of legitimacy is relevant (that is why "legitimate" and "legit" are used by the speakers). I don't saying that legitimacy is the best word, the best term... just that the concept exists and is relevant.
On the other hand, acceptance is different from legitimacy. Something largely accepted will finish being legitimate, as I said in other posts, but not necessarily. Since the meaning of legitimate which I was refering to includes the concept of "standard", you have to keep in mind that who marks the standard is usually not the most large group, but the more powerful group.
I can't speak for all the languages and cultures, obviously, but in the case of the languages that I know in some degree (all of them European) the concept of legitimacy is relevant (that is why "legitimate" and "legit" are used by the speakers). I don't saying that legitimacy is the best word, the best term... just that the concept exists and is relevant.
On the other hand, acceptance is different from legitimacy. Something largely accepted will finish being legitimate, as I said in other posts, but not necessarily. Since the meaning of legitimate which I was refering to includes the concept of "standard", you have to keep in mind that who marks the standard is usually not the most large group, but the more powerful group.
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Thank you for the lucid explanation.
I do see this concept existing in some cultural contexts in India like a, largely old-fashioned, bengali hindu community that would insist there is a proper (usually, but not exclusively, Sanskrit derived) spelling for a name. In other contexts, including the largest section of the current urban bengali generations, at least in Indian Bengal, the concept would seem rather odd: they will insist like CKE that names do not have standardized spellings, simply more common and less common ones. In practice, I can see that despite this insistence, the vast majority of them do follow the spellings of the names `legitimate' according to the older generation for those names which would be recognizable to them. But, they freely use other names, with non-standardized spellings, and do not bother about the legitimacy either of these names or of these spellings.
Everything I said above I meant to apply only to the spellings in Bengali: the English spellings have never been standardized, even for those expatriate Bengalis who could not spell their name in Bengali, and even though in modern urban India people often use English and the Roman script as the only means of communication in a wide circle. (With exceptions: the Calcutta University and a few other institutions used to `standardize' the English spellings of the traditional forenames and last names in the graduation etc. certificates issued by them, to the utter confusion of all legal bodies, Indian and foreign, unfamiliar with this custom. I do not know if they still do it. The telephone directories, similarly, often arbitrarily standardize the English spellings to a bizarre standards varying according to individual vagaries.)
I focused on Hindu Bengali communities specifically because details differ, but many of the remarks above do apply to other religions and regions as well.
I do see this concept existing in some cultural contexts in India like a, largely old-fashioned, bengali hindu community that would insist there is a proper (usually, but not exclusively, Sanskrit derived) spelling for a name. In other contexts, including the largest section of the current urban bengali generations, at least in Indian Bengal, the concept would seem rather odd: they will insist like CKE that names do not have standardized spellings, simply more common and less common ones. In practice, I can see that despite this insistence, the vast majority of them do follow the spellings of the names `legitimate' according to the older generation for those names which would be recognizable to them. But, they freely use other names, with non-standardized spellings, and do not bother about the legitimacy either of these names or of these spellings.
Everything I said above I meant to apply only to the spellings in Bengali: the English spellings have never been standardized, even for those expatriate Bengalis who could not spell their name in Bengali, and even though in modern urban India people often use English and the Roman script as the only means of communication in a wide circle. (With exceptions: the Calcutta University and a few other institutions used to `standardize' the English spellings of the traditional forenames and last names in the graduation etc. certificates issued by them, to the utter confusion of all legal bodies, Indian and foreign, unfamiliar with this custom. I do not know if they still do it. The telephone directories, similarly, often arbitrarily standardize the English spellings to a bizarre standards varying according to individual vagaries.)
I focused on Hindu Bengali communities specifically because details differ, but many of the remarks above do apply to other religions and regions as well.
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