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ArchivesRe: How would Vespasienne (fem.) be pronounced in French?
in reply to a message by CN
That is not correct.
In French, É represents the sound [e], which only occurs dialectally in English (as in the Australian sound for bed) or as part of the diphthong [eɪ], often represented as AY in English (play, pain...). This one is the more approximate sound in general English to the French É (or the Spanish E).
The E (without accent) can represent in French the sound [ɛ] (as in perle or in mettre) present in English (dress, bed), the sound [ə] (as in fixement) present in English (about), the sound [ɛ˜] (the nasal mark must to be over the vowel) (as in examen) non present in English, the sound [ɑ˜] (as in entrer) neither in English, the sound [e] (as in fixer) or it can be mute (as in porte or in parles).
On the other hand, the English sound present in words as first, burst, thrist is the sound [ɜː], which doesn't exist in French (according to Wikipedia, it only appears in English and in Paicî).
Finally, Vespasienne has only three syllables and not four: [vɛspa'zjɛn]. (The sound of the A is [a], which is not present in the general English, but in the Australian English for father, for example).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
In French, É represents the sound [e], which only occurs dialectally in English (as in the Australian sound for bed) or as part of the diphthong [eɪ], often represented as AY in English (play, pain...). This one is the more approximate sound in general English to the French É (or the Spanish E).
The E (without accent) can represent in French the sound [ɛ] (as in perle or in mettre) present in English (dress, bed), the sound [ə] (as in fixement) present in English (about), the sound [ɛ˜] (the nasal mark must to be over the vowel) (as in examen) non present in English, the sound [ɑ˜] (as in entrer) neither in English, the sound [e] (as in fixer) or it can be mute (as in porte or in parles).
On the other hand, the English sound present in words as first, burst, thrist is the sound [ɜː], which doesn't exist in French (according to Wikipedia, it only appears in English and in Paicî).
Finally, Vespasienne has only three syllables and not four: [vɛspa'zjɛn]. (The sound of the A is [a], which is not present in the general English, but in the Australian English for father, for example).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
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Replies
I agree that my explaination of the E and the É sound was too general and that E in French can be pronounced in many ways but I still don't think you can equal the sound in play and pain with the French é sound. It sounds wrong and personally I've never heard it in French.
How do you explain the -eu sound in French words such as jeune, peu, feu? To me the French -eu sound can only be explained (in English) when compared to the vowel sound in first, burst etc. A sound you say does not exist in French.
ETA: I don't believe in the facts from Wikipedia that the vowel sound in 'first' only exists in English and in Paicî. I would argue that that sound is pretty much the same sound that you find in the Scandinavian Ö / Ø as well.
How do you explain the -eu sound in French words such as jeune, peu, feu? To me the French -eu sound can only be explained (in English) when compared to the vowel sound in first, burst etc. A sound you say does not exist in French.
ETA: I don't believe in the facts from Wikipedia that the vowel sound in 'first' only exists in English and in Paicî. I would argue that that sound is pretty much the same sound that you find in the Scandinavian Ö / Ø as well.
This message was edited 7/9/2009, 9:18 AM
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When I was saying that the [e] is only present in English in the group [eI] (which is the sound of the word pain or play) I'm refering to the first sound of the diphthong, obviously.
The sound of feu, peu... is [ø] (which it seems that is the sound of the Swedish Ö/Ø) and the sound of jeune is [œ], two different sounds even in French. These sounds are represented by EU, not only by E and they are not the same that the English [ɜ:]. If you have to explain EU to an English, ok, you can do more or less the analogy, but in Vespasienne there is not EU and your post refered strictely to E.
That to a speaker a foreign sound "sounds" like another sound in other language, it doesn't mean that both sounds are the same. All the speakers distribute what they hear according their phonemes: what is two or three distinctive phonemes in a language, can be simply allophones in another one.
Even in the case of people whith a strong training in phonetics and used to do IPA phonetic transcriptions, often it is very hard to "hear" clearly a sound that is not in your own repertoire.
I take always Wikipedia with a grain of salt, but in the case of the phonetic descriptions of the languages is very accurated and matches the documentation that I have about phonetics in general, Romance phonetics and French phonetics from my degree courses.
The sound of feu, peu... is [ø] (which it seems that is the sound of the Swedish Ö/Ø) and the sound of jeune is [œ], two different sounds even in French. These sounds are represented by EU, not only by E and they are not the same that the English [ɜ:]. If you have to explain EU to an English, ok, you can do more or less the analogy, but in Vespasienne there is not EU and your post refered strictely to E.
That to a speaker a foreign sound "sounds" like another sound in other language, it doesn't mean that both sounds are the same. All the speakers distribute what they hear according their phonemes: what is two or three distinctive phonemes in a language, can be simply allophones in another one.
Even in the case of people whith a strong training in phonetics and used to do IPA phonetic transcriptions, often it is very hard to "hear" clearly a sound that is not in your own repertoire.
I take always Wikipedia with a grain of salt, but in the case of the phonetic descriptions of the languages is very accurated and matches the documentation that I have about phonetics in general, Romance phonetics and French phonetics from my degree courses.
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When I was saying that the [e] is only present in English in the group [eI] (which is the sound of the word pain or play) I'm refering to the first sound of the diphthong, obviously.
Thanks for clarifying. I do however think that many pronounce the [e] as a diphtong, -ay, and consequently é in French like -ay.
I know that the vowel sound in peu and jeune are not the same and the difference exist in Swedish too (using Ö for both sounds). Unfortunately I can't see the phonetical alphabet on my computer so I can't see how the English sound differs from the French. I admit that I honestly can't hear the difference between the English vowel sound in first and the French EU or the Scandinavian Ö/Ø.
I hope you don't feel like I've criticised you. I just think this is very interesting and I realise that you have more knowledge of phonetics than I have.
ETA: Forgot to ask you. You say that "These sounds are represented by EU, not only by E" but the E when saying the French alphabet is pronounced like the EU sound and in words such as regard, renard etc Is this sound phonetically different from the EU sound?
Thanks for clarifying. I do however think that many pronounce the [e] as a diphtong, -ay, and consequently é in French like -ay.
I know that the vowel sound in peu and jeune are not the same and the difference exist in Swedish too (using Ö for both sounds). Unfortunately I can't see the phonetical alphabet on my computer so I can't see how the English sound differs from the French. I admit that I honestly can't hear the difference between the English vowel sound in first and the French EU or the Scandinavian Ö/Ø.
I hope you don't feel like I've criticised you. I just think this is very interesting and I realise that you have more knowledge of phonetics than I have.
ETA: Forgot to ask you. You say that "These sounds are represented by EU, not only by E" but the E when saying the French alphabet is pronounced like the EU sound and in words such as regard, renard etc Is this sound phonetically different from the EU sound?
This message was edited 7/9/2009, 12:33 PM
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I agree with you that many English speakers who don't speak any language with the sound [e], as French or Spanish, will pronounce [eI] instead of only [e] when they see AY. But, this is the most approximate that they can have in their language and to their ears both pronounciations sound pretty much the same or very close.
That is why, for example, the phrase "No way, José" was coined. To my ears "way" and "José" don't rhyme ("way" and the Spanish "rey" do), but for the English speakers they do:
"Why Jose? There's no reason to think that Jose was an actual person. The name was probably chosen for the rhyme with 'no way', which predates the longer phrase."
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/no-way-jose.html
You can't hear the difference between the English vowel [ɜː] (open-mid central unrounded) and the French and Swedish [ø] (close-mid front rounded) or the French and Swedish [œ] (open-mid front rounded) because your language system doesn't have the first one as phoneme, so you perceive it as an allophone of these two sounds, probably mainly as allophone of the open-mid front rounded vowel, which has a more near articulation point.
The E when saying the French alphabet is NOT pronounced like the EU sond, it is pronounced [ə] (usually called schwa in English), a mid central vowel (unrounded in English and rounded in French or Catalan). The same is true for the E in words as renard or regard and this is the reason why the sound can even disappear, a situation common with the schwa in unstressed syllables.
Again, you identify this schwa sound as a [œ] (open-mid front rounded) because in Swedish it doesn't exist as a phoneme (according to Wikipedia, it only exists in some dialects as allophone for some unstressed syllables).
You can try to distinguish the English vowels from the French vowels using this video (French vowels):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=en-GB&v=RJVxe4inqyg
and this website (American English vowels, but it also has some British English vowels):
http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#
That is why, for example, the phrase "No way, José" was coined. To my ears "way" and "José" don't rhyme ("way" and the Spanish "rey" do), but for the English speakers they do:
"Why Jose? There's no reason to think that Jose was an actual person. The name was probably chosen for the rhyme with 'no way', which predates the longer phrase."
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/no-way-jose.html
You can't hear the difference between the English vowel [ɜː] (open-mid central unrounded) and the French and Swedish [ø] (close-mid front rounded) or the French and Swedish [œ] (open-mid front rounded) because your language system doesn't have the first one as phoneme, so you perceive it as an allophone of these two sounds, probably mainly as allophone of the open-mid front rounded vowel, which has a more near articulation point.
The E when saying the French alphabet is NOT pronounced like the EU sond, it is pronounced [ə] (usually called schwa in English), a mid central vowel (unrounded in English and rounded in French or Catalan). The same is true for the E in words as renard or regard and this is the reason why the sound can even disappear, a situation common with the schwa in unstressed syllables.
Again, you identify this schwa sound as a [œ] (open-mid front rounded) because in Swedish it doesn't exist as a phoneme (according to Wikipedia, it only exists in some dialects as allophone for some unstressed syllables).
You can try to distinguish the English vowels from the French vowels using this video (French vowels):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=AU&hl=en-GB&v=RJVxe4inqyg
and this website (American English vowels, but it also has some British English vowels):
http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#
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