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ArchivesRe: And Thus Kaytelynne was born!
in reply to a message by namebug
I don't think you have the relationship between Kathleen and Caitlin quite right. I don't know of any evidence that a French form with -line became Kathleen in England independently of the Irish name. Rather, Kathleen is an Anglicized spelling of the Irish name and was imported into England from Ireland, not directly from France. In Gaelic Caitlin is pronounced something like "Cot-leen" and so Kathleen is really closer to the original pronunciation of Caitlin in Ireland than Katelynn would be. :)
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Caitlin, Kathleen, "Quene Kateryn" and a question!
Agreed. I also recently found out that in medieval England, Katherine was pronounced Katerin, without the 'th' sound (this fits in with the French pronunciation too). Soon after, I visited the grave of Katherine Parr, King Henry VIII's sixth and final wife who survived him, and the tomb was engraved "HERE LIETH QUENE KATERYN". Perhaps that's where the Welsh form Catrin came from, too.
Kathleen, as an English name, is relatively recently imported from Ireland (19th century?). The 'tl' sound in the Old French Cateline must have changed in an Irish accent to create the "Coshleen" type pronunciations found in Ireland. And then these pronunciations were then approximated into the anglicized version Kathleen.
I wonder if somebody knows why so many French names in particular made it into medieval Ireland? Apart from Cateline/Caitlin, I can think of Jeanne/Siobhan, Jean/Sean... I'm sure there are more but I can't remember. I know that anything with a 'j' or 'zh' sound got turned into a 'sh' sound.
I suppose Caitlin/Katelyn is a new step in the proliferation of Katherine variants. Caitlin has now given birth to two English variants, Kathleen (an approximated pronunciation), and Katelyn etc (a spelling pronunciation - albeit a very pretty one).
Agreed. I also recently found out that in medieval England, Katherine was pronounced Katerin, without the 'th' sound (this fits in with the French pronunciation too). Soon after, I visited the grave of Katherine Parr, King Henry VIII's sixth and final wife who survived him, and the tomb was engraved "HERE LIETH QUENE KATERYN". Perhaps that's where the Welsh form Catrin came from, too.
Kathleen, as an English name, is relatively recently imported from Ireland (19th century?). The 'tl' sound in the Old French Cateline must have changed in an Irish accent to create the "Coshleen" type pronunciations found in Ireland. And then these pronunciations were then approximated into the anglicized version Kathleen.
I wonder if somebody knows why so many French names in particular made it into medieval Ireland? Apart from Cateline/Caitlin, I can think of Jeanne/Siobhan, Jean/Sean... I'm sure there are more but I can't remember. I know that anything with a 'j' or 'zh' sound got turned into a 'sh' sound.
I suppose Caitlin/Katelyn is a new step in the proliferation of Katherine variants. Caitlin has now given birth to two English variants, Kathleen (an approximated pronunciation), and Katelyn etc (a spelling pronunciation - albeit a very pretty one).
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French names were brought to Ireland in medieval times by the Normans, the same people who brought them to England:
http://www.yourirish.com/normans.htm
http://www.yourirish.com/normans.htm
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Kathleen is the Anglicized form of Caitlín, which is the Irish form of Cateline. Many Irish names have been Anglicized, like Shawn for Seán, Kiera for Ciara, Rory for Ruaidhrí, etc.
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