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ArchivesMN spelling issue-Noel
I am having a dilemma over how to spell a middle name. I've named my DD Saoirse Noelle, but prefer the spelling of Noel for balance with the last name as it seems to "look" better. For correct french usage, it appears her name should be spelled Noelle, but then someone argued, Jean is used for American women, when in reality, it should be Jeanne for feminine.
If Noel is a striclty masculine name, I'll stick with the "lle" ending- also I do not want people to pronounce her middle name "No'ul" and since her first name is ambiguous/difficult enough, I thought I'd get some thoughts. TIA.
If Noel is a striclty masculine name, I'll stick with the "lle" ending- also I do not want people to pronounce her middle name "No'ul" and since her first name is ambiguous/difficult enough, I thought I'd get some thoughts. TIA.
This message was edited 10/23/2007, 10:04 AM
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Replies
Noël for a boy, Noëlle for a girl!
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Noel, pronounced "nole," is an English boy's name. Example: Noel Coward, the playwright.
Noe"l, with two dots over the e, pronounced "no-ELL," is the French word for Christmas. Example: The First Noe"l. I love this for a girl. I'm used to seasonal / temporal names like Autumn, Spring, Winter, Summer used for girls, so to me Noe"l falls right in line with this.
Noelle is made up. Don't care for it at all.
The Jean / Jeanne thing is apples and oranges. Not the same situation at all. Jean is the French form of John. Jean is also the Scottish form of Jane (from John). Both Jean for a boy and Jean for a girl are quite defensible, historically speaking.
Noe"l, with two dots over the e, pronounced "no-ELL," is the French word for Christmas. Example: The First Noe"l. I love this for a girl. I'm used to seasonal / temporal names like Autumn, Spring, Winter, Summer used for girls, so to me Noe"l falls right in line with this.
Noelle is made up. Don't care for it at all.
The Jean / Jeanne thing is apples and oranges. Not the same situation at all. Jean is the French form of John. Jean is also the Scottish form of Jane (from John). Both Jean for a boy and Jean for a girl are quite defensible, historically speaking.
This message was edited 10/24/2007, 3:43 PM
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No.
Noëlle is the french feminine form of the french (not english) male name Noël.
Made up in a way all feminine french names ending on -le have been made up from a masculin name ending in "el", or "ël" in this case :)
Noëlle is the french feminine form of the french (not english) male name Noël.
Made up in a way all feminine french names ending on -le have been made up from a masculin name ending in "el", or "ël" in this case :)
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Not all French feminine names with an *el* sound at the end end in "-elle." Example: Adele, Gisele.
Noelle is a made up "Americanized" French name. No one in France would use it.
The only reason Noe"l (with two dots, I'm hopeless at fancy accent marks on my computer) *feels* feminine to me is the analogy to Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter in English. Since the proper way to spell the word Christmas in French is with the two dots, that's why I include them in the name.
Noel, without the two dots, pronounced "nole" is definitely an English boy's name. It obviously comes from French, but the Brits have adapted it into their usage this way. Noel Coward, if you have never heard of HIM, is a famous playwright. He is just one of many British MEN with the name.
I never said Noel without two dots was a valid French spelling. If you re-read my post you'll see that I specifically denoted it as an English (male) variant of the French word.
Noelle is a made up "Americanized" French name. No one in France would use it.
The only reason Noe"l (with two dots, I'm hopeless at fancy accent marks on my computer) *feels* feminine to me is the analogy to Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter in English. Since the proper way to spell the word Christmas in French is with the two dots, that's why I include them in the name.
Noel, without the two dots, pronounced "nole" is definitely an English boy's name. It obviously comes from French, but the Brits have adapted it into their usage this way. Noel Coward, if you have never heard of HIM, is a famous playwright. He is just one of many British MEN with the name.
I never said Noel without two dots was a valid French spelling. If you re-read my post you'll see that I specifically denoted it as an English (male) variant of the French word.
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>Not all French feminine names with an *el* sound at the end end in "-elle." Example: Adele, Gisele.
you're right. I wasn't saying that all french names on -el were made up the same way. But I wanted to say that "Noelle" isn't any more made up than f.ex. Michelle, Danielle, Emanuelle or Gabrielle. Because ...
>Noelle is a made up "Americanized" French name. No one in France would use it.
This is not the case. It has been made up in France. Since in France "Noël" is male and male only. So when the word "Noël" turned into a first name, they came up with "Noëlle" as the female variant.
I know there are female names that have been "french"-isized outside of France by adding -elle or -le (or -ette), but Noëlle isn't one of them. That's what I wanted to say :)
In fact, using Noël or Noel as female names is the "americanized" way.
you're right. I wasn't saying that all french names on -el were made up the same way. But I wanted to say that "Noelle" isn't any more made up than f.ex. Michelle, Danielle, Emanuelle or Gabrielle. Because ...
>Noelle is a made up "Americanized" French name. No one in France would use it.
This is not the case. It has been made up in France. Since in France "Noël" is male and male only. So when the word "Noël" turned into a first name, they came up with "Noëlle" as the female variant.
I know there are female names that have been "french"-isized outside of France by adding -elle or -le (or -ette), but Noëlle isn't one of them. That's what I wanted to say :)
In fact, using Noël or Noel as female names is the "americanized" way.
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Noëlle
Noëlle is not a made up "Americanized" French name.
It was used mainly in Middle Ages, just as other Christian/Catholic feasts (Toussaint, Tiphaine, Noël...) and just as in other European languages (Nadal/Nadala in Catalan, Natal or Epifanio/Epifania/Epifanía in Spanish, etc.). After this age, the name (and the masculine Noël) fell in popularity and it was recuperated in 20th century for use (also in the compound Marie-Noëlle).
It had a moment of splendour in '40s-'70s, with a zenith year in 1949, with 1,095 new-born girls named Noëlle.
At the begin of 2006, a total of 24,453 girls in France were named Noëlle.
Noëlle is not a made up "Americanized" French name.
It was used mainly in Middle Ages, just as other Christian/Catholic feasts (Toussaint, Tiphaine, Noël...) and just as in other European languages (Nadal/Nadala in Catalan, Natal or Epifanio/Epifania/Epifanía in Spanish, etc.). After this age, the name (and the masculine Noël) fell in popularity and it was recuperated in 20th century for use (also in the compound Marie-Noëlle).
It had a moment of splendour in '40s-'70s, with a zenith year in 1949, with 1,095 new-born girls named Noëlle.
At the begin of 2006, a total of 24,453 girls in France were named Noëlle.
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Thank you for responding!
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Is Noëlle used as a name in France?
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use Noel
I always thought Noel/Noelle sounded feminine no matter what form and I would consider the person female initially. I have a friend who's middle name is Noel and he hates it for that reason. I think you can use Noel, it still sounds feminine, its a middle name and it IS your child...people will adjust.
P.S. Saoirse is my very favorite for a girl!
I always thought Noel/Noelle sounded feminine no matter what form and I would consider the person female initially. I have a friend who's middle name is Noel and he hates it for that reason. I think you can use Noel, it still sounds feminine, its a middle name and it IS your child...people will adjust.
P.S. Saoirse is my very favorite for a girl!
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Hi Aria and Kate, thanks for your thoughts!
It looks like there are definitely varying opinions on this issue! While I prefer Noel with the spelling of the first name and last name for reasons of symmetry, I don't want to totally ditch "naming" rules...after all, I chose to use the proper spelling of Saoirse rather than some weird phonetic one.
If she ever wants to use the mn as her first-it's making me think I should use the "lle" ending (which I prefer on a first name) also-When reading her name-people will probably have trouble knowing what gender she is just by looking at her first name, that the second name will give them a hint. But are those reasons enough-or should I just go with what looks "more balanced to me?
I'm going nuts, but need to decide soon so as to get her SSN and send out the birth announcement, lol!
It looks like there are definitely varying opinions on this issue! While I prefer Noel with the spelling of the first name and last name for reasons of symmetry, I don't want to totally ditch "naming" rules...after all, I chose to use the proper spelling of Saoirse rather than some weird phonetic one.
If she ever wants to use the mn as her first-it's making me think I should use the "lle" ending (which I prefer on a first name) also-When reading her name-people will probably have trouble knowing what gender she is just by looking at her first name, that the second name will give them a hint. But are those reasons enough-or should I just go with what looks "more balanced to me?
I'm going nuts, but need to decide soon so as to get her SSN and send out the birth announcement, lol!
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When reading her name-people will probably have trouble knowing what gender she is just by looking at her first name, that the second name will give them a hint. But are those reasons enough-or should I just go with what looks "more balanced to me?
I have actually seen Saoirse used on a boy (his father was from Ireland), although it is a popular girls name in Ireland.
I would definately spell the middle name Noelle. If my middle name was Noel it would really bother me it wasn't spelled "right." I wouldn't care if Noel looked better written out.
I have actually seen Saoirse used on a boy (his father was from Ireland), although it is a popular girls name in Ireland.
I would definately spell the middle name Noelle. If my middle name was Noel it would really bother me it wasn't spelled "right." I wouldn't care if Noel looked better written out.
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Thank you both for your responses. I actually like the lle spelling better, just thought the male spelling looked bettter when paired with her other names. I agree-I think I'll go with the lle ending, just b/c the incorrect usage bothers me.
The only way I can see using Noel is if one were to use it seasonally, i.e. the child was born at Christmas and you want it to refer to the season-not the proper name. Since she was not born then that is a non-issue, and I really want it to be a name she feels good about.
Thanks so much everyone!
The only way I can see using Noel is if one were to use it seasonally, i.e. the child was born at Christmas and you want it to refer to the season-not the proper name. Since she was not born then that is a non-issue, and I really want it to be a name she feels good about.
Thanks so much everyone!
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Noel in French is indeed strictly male. For girls it is always Noelle.
In French both are pronounced exactly the same way and for completely correct use it has to have the dots above the "e" (which actually forces the accent on the "-el" instead of "Nol")
But since in some foreign countries, depending on the laws, people don't care that much about the original usage and pronunciation, it's a matter of personal preferences and interest =)
But if you want to avoid the english "No'ul" pronunciation "Noelle" would be the better choice I think.
In French both are pronounced exactly the same way and for completely correct use it has to have the dots above the "e" (which actually forces the accent on the "-el" instead of "Nol")
But since in some foreign countries, depending on the laws, people don't care that much about the original usage and pronunciation, it's a matter of personal preferences and interest =)
But if you want to avoid the english "No'ul" pronunciation "Noelle" would be the better choice I think.
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I know a woman, born in the early 1940s in South Africa, whose name is Noel. It's never given her a moment's trouble.
Personally, I don't see the point of using a French spelling (Jeanne, Isabelle, Noelle etc) unless either you are French or you plan to use the French pronunciation. But I don't suppose there's much French spoken in the US, so that might not be an issue.
Personally, I don't see the point of using a French spelling (Jeanne, Isabelle, Noelle etc) unless either you are French or you plan to use the French pronunciation. But I don't suppose there's much French spoken in the US, so that might not be an issue.
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OH-Thanks for the correction! My mother's and others arguing points are no longer valid then...
This message was edited 10/23/2007, 4:34 PM
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Although I have seen Noel used on females, Noelle is the female version of Noel. Both can be pronounced No-El, or Noel can be pronounced NOL.
I wouldn't think it's a big deal if you used Noel for a MN on a girl (by the way, I love the name Saoirse) because not a lot of people will see it, and I suppose a lot of people these days are using boy's names on girls anyway, not that I condone following that trend. :)
I wouldn't think it's a big deal if you used Noel for a MN on a girl (by the way, I love the name Saoirse) because not a lot of people will see it, and I suppose a lot of people these days are using boy's names on girls anyway, not that I condone following that trend. :)
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Thank you both for responding.
Penguiny wrote>>>d I suppose a lot of people these days are using boy's names on girls anyway, not that I condone following that trend. :)
I don't either, that's why I wanted to pose the question as some sites say Noel is unisex. I was leaning toward Noelle for gender reasons but met a woman with her MN spelled Noel-and a few family members I asked actually like Noel better-and my husband has left it up to me- hence my indecision!
Spelling it the feminine way might make more sense should she ever want to use her middle name as her first name for whatever reason.
Penguiny wrote>>>d I suppose a lot of people these days are using boy's names on girls anyway, not that I condone following that trend. :)
I don't either, that's why I wanted to pose the question as some sites say Noel is unisex. I was leaning toward Noelle for gender reasons but met a woman with her MN spelled Noel-and a few family members I asked actually like Noel better-and my husband has left it up to me- hence my indecision!
Spelling it the feminine way might make more sense should she ever want to use her middle name as her first name for whatever reason.
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Noël is strictly male, Noëlle strictly female. But are prononced noh-ehl.
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