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ArchivesRe: Provencal? French? Little green space alienese?
in reply to a message by Anneza
The first reference to the name is found in the person of Aimery II de Thouars's wife, Alienor (910/915-995), also cited as Allanor and Alianor and also known as Hardouine:
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/continent/qrstu/thouars1.htm
http://www.afn.org/~lawson/d0003/g0000034.html#I5498
http://fabpedigree.com/s017/f289956.htm
Her grand-grandson Geoffroy de Thouars's wife was named Aenor (Aenor de Blois), and she is also documented as Ainor/Aynor/Ainora and Adenordis:
"(25) Elle est dite Adenordis (cartulaire de St-Jouin-de-Marnes, p. 1-3; Archives Historiques de la Saintonge et de l'Aunis, tome XXX, p. 314-317, n° 257); Ainor (Archives Historiques du Poitou, tome III, p. 106, n° 158; p. 110, n° 167; p. 112-113, n° 173), Aynor (ibid., tome XVI, p. 106-107, n° 88)."
http://poitou.ifrance.com/famthouars.htm
That and the fact that her granddaughter Aenor de Thouars (1050-1088/93), Eleanor of Aquitaine's grand-grandmother, was cited in some documents as Adenor, Aenors and Aleanor/Alienor made think in Aenor as a hypochoristic form of Adenor, by fall of the intervocalic –d- (Adenordis > Adenors > Adenor > Aenor) in a similar process to the process that generates the form Aalis (Adalhaid > Adalaid > Adalais > Adalis > Aalis).
http://www.chretiens-chatellerault.com.fr/Histoire_%20Locale/Histoire_pages/histoire_Philippe_Bellin.htm
http://fjaunais.free.fr/h0chatellera.htm
The name Adenor/Aenor is also documented in other people in 10th century, as Adenor/Aenor, Gelduin the Young's wife, for instance:
http://perso.orange.fr/saumur-jadis/bios/gelduin.htm
The forms Adenor and Alienor would be feminine evolutions from the Germanic name Aldenor (with the feminine ending in –is, typical in Medieval Germanic names in Catalan and Occitan: Aleidis, Almodis, Adelgardis, Arsendis...). The name Aldenor (masculine) exists in Portuguese and it is more or less used in Brazil:
http://www.censocultural.ba.gov.br/ccb_municipios_resultado_artista.asp?idm=2&MunID=87&RegID=&Cl=2
http://www.censocultural.ba.gov.br/ccb_municipios_resultado_relatoriogeral.asp?idm=2&MunID=132&RegID=&Cl=
In fact, in the 10th century in Catalonia, there are documented in the Repertori d'Antropònims Catalans (RAC) variant forms of names in which Alde- has evolved to Ali- or Alie-: Aldenardus > Alienardus/Alinardus/Allenardo (927 to 980).
And in the same RAC, there are variant forms of names in which Alde- (o Adel-) has evolved to Ade-: Aldebert / Adelbert > Adebert (875 and 876).
So, the etym could be a Germanic dythematic name Aldenor, from alda, "old", and nord, "north".
It could be the possibility of a name *Adalnor, from adal, "noble", and nord, "north", but I am not able to document this form, so it is only a second hypothesis.
Since the first Alienor predates in 100 years Eleanor of Aquitaine, the name explanation relating it with alia-aenor seems another folk etymology from educated sources.
There is a concorrent source to the popularity of Aenor as independent name; it is the existence of the Breton name Azenor (Judael's wife, 6th century).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/continent/qrstu/thouars1.htm
http://www.afn.org/~lawson/d0003/g0000034.html#I5498
http://fabpedigree.com/s017/f289956.htm
Her grand-grandson Geoffroy de Thouars's wife was named Aenor (Aenor de Blois), and she is also documented as Ainor/Aynor/Ainora and Adenordis:
"(25) Elle est dite Adenordis (cartulaire de St-Jouin-de-Marnes, p. 1-3; Archives Historiques de la Saintonge et de l'Aunis, tome XXX, p. 314-317, n° 257); Ainor (Archives Historiques du Poitou, tome III, p. 106, n° 158; p. 110, n° 167; p. 112-113, n° 173), Aynor (ibid., tome XVI, p. 106-107, n° 88)."
http://poitou.ifrance.com/famthouars.htm
That and the fact that her granddaughter Aenor de Thouars (1050-1088/93), Eleanor of Aquitaine's grand-grandmother, was cited in some documents as Adenor, Aenors and Aleanor/Alienor made think in Aenor as a hypochoristic form of Adenor, by fall of the intervocalic –d- (Adenordis > Adenors > Adenor > Aenor) in a similar process to the process that generates the form Aalis (Adalhaid > Adalaid > Adalais > Adalis > Aalis).
http://www.chretiens-chatellerault.com.fr/Histoire_%20Locale/Histoire_pages/histoire_Philippe_Bellin.htm
http://fjaunais.free.fr/h0chatellera.htm
The name Adenor/Aenor is also documented in other people in 10th century, as Adenor/Aenor, Gelduin the Young's wife, for instance:
http://perso.orange.fr/saumur-jadis/bios/gelduin.htm
The forms Adenor and Alienor would be feminine evolutions from the Germanic name Aldenor (with the feminine ending in –is, typical in Medieval Germanic names in Catalan and Occitan: Aleidis, Almodis, Adelgardis, Arsendis...). The name Aldenor (masculine) exists in Portuguese and it is more or less used in Brazil:
http://www.censocultural.ba.gov.br/ccb_municipios_resultado_artista.asp?idm=2&MunID=87&RegID=&Cl=2
http://www.censocultural.ba.gov.br/ccb_municipios_resultado_relatoriogeral.asp?idm=2&MunID=132&RegID=&Cl=
In fact, in the 10th century in Catalonia, there are documented in the Repertori d'Antropònims Catalans (RAC) variant forms of names in which Alde- has evolved to Ali- or Alie-: Aldenardus > Alienardus/Alinardus/Allenardo (927 to 980).
And in the same RAC, there are variant forms of names in which Alde- (o Adel-) has evolved to Ade-: Aldebert / Adelbert > Adebert (875 and 876).
So, the etym could be a Germanic dythematic name Aldenor, from alda, "old", and nord, "north".
It could be the possibility of a name *Adalnor, from adal, "noble", and nord, "north", but I am not able to document this form, so it is only a second hypothesis.
Since the first Alienor predates in 100 years Eleanor of Aquitaine, the name explanation relating it with alia-aenor seems another folk etymology from educated sources.
There is a concorrent source to the popularity of Aenor as independent name; it is the existence of the Breton name Azenor (Judael's wife, 6th century).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
This message was edited 6/13/2007, 11:00 AM
1
Replies
*Awed*
1
Wow, Lumia, this is beyond wonderful! If you ever come to South Africa, there'll be a big chocolate cake awaiting you ...
It makes total sense for such an old name to have a Germanic origin! I was wondering about that, but in Eleanor of Aquitaine's time it would be pretty improbable. But your 10th century references solve that issue conclusively, I'd say. They also explain how what would otherwise have been a nonce name - a one-off - apparently caught on fast all over Europe and remained in use: it was there all the time ...
Don't know that the dropped -d- is necessarily hypochoristic, though. It could have disappeared after turning into a Cockney-style glottal stop (usually done with /t/, but I've heard /d/ pronounced with that ' as well); or, it's also possible to get from /d/ to /l/ quickly and easily if the /d/ is rapidly pronounced, more like a flap, so you end up close to the Welsh double-l (though not the Spanish :)); from that to a single /l/ is a small step.
And we might even be able to retain cute little baby Eleanor: her first attempts to say her own name could have reminded the adults around her of great-great-granny Alienor de Thouars, or simply of Ali-Aenor, and it would then have become the name that she was known by.
Your research should be more widely known ...
All the best
It makes total sense for such an old name to have a Germanic origin! I was wondering about that, but in Eleanor of Aquitaine's time it would be pretty improbable. But your 10th century references solve that issue conclusively, I'd say. They also explain how what would otherwise have been a nonce name - a one-off - apparently caught on fast all over Europe and remained in use: it was there all the time ...
Don't know that the dropped -d- is necessarily hypochoristic, though. It could have disappeared after turning into a Cockney-style glottal stop (usually done with /t/, but I've heard /d/ pronounced with that ' as well); or, it's also possible to get from /d/ to /l/ quickly and easily if the /d/ is rapidly pronounced, more like a flap, so you end up close to the Welsh double-l (though not the Spanish :)); from that to a single /l/ is a small step.
And we might even be able to retain cute little baby Eleanor: her first attempts to say her own name could have reminded the adults around her of great-great-granny Alienor de Thouars, or simply of Ali-Aenor, and it would then have become the name that she was known by.
Your research should be more widely known ...
All the best
1
It *IS* widely known . . .
I live far, far away (easy there, Fiona!) and I know about Lumia's work! ;op
Ps.:
Hola Lumia! como te va?!
I live far, far away (easy there, Fiona!) and I know about Lumia's work! ;op
Ps.:
Hola Lumia! como te va?!
1
Wow ...... o_o
1