New Post
Search
Help
ArchivesThe nickname Jack in the UK has absolutely no connection with Jacques...
in reply to a message by Satu
and John, Johan and Jehan (Jan) are all perfectly good Medieval English forms of John - there's no need to refer to Friesian or Low German for the use of the diminutive in England. And all the js in the UK are pronounced like j. Jock for Jonkin/Jockin is the Scottish form.
1
Replies
Hi Merriment,
Yes, it IS necessary to refer to the Frisian and Low German diminutives because that were the original forms brought to the Medieval England by Flemish wool weavers.
And I never said that J's are not pronounced like J's in the UK. I said that in _all the other languages_ I mentioned they are pronounced like Y!
Originally Jack had nothing to do with the French name Jacques, but later and still today Jack is often referred to be an English version of Jacques because of the similar sound. You will find that in many books even if most of the authors correctly mention that the connection was made up much later.
Regards, Satu
Yes, it IS necessary to refer to the Frisian and Low German diminutives because that were the original forms brought to the Medieval England by Flemish wool weavers.
And I never said that J's are not pronounced like J's in the UK. I said that in _all the other languages_ I mentioned they are pronounced like Y!
Originally Jack had nothing to do with the French name Jacques, but later and still today Jack is often referred to be an English version of Jacques because of the similar sound. You will find that in many books even if most of the authors correctly mention that the connection was made up much later.
Regards, Satu
1
But it's still true that the nickname Jack in the UK has no etymological connection with Jacques...
I prefer not to repeat name 'expert' errors if I can avoid it. :)
Regarding the Flemish weavers, it's surely true that they popularized the names Jankin, Jenkin and Jonkin. In fact, digging around on the net this morning, I found a record claiming that Flemish settlers arrived in South Wales around 1100, and more in 1300(ish) which might go some way to explaining the popularity of Jenkin in Wales. However, it's also to be remembered that there were people of all origins with William the Conqueror, and the diminutive suffix -kin probably arrived in the UK with the Normans. In the Welsh sample alone I have Watkin, Wilkin, Tomkin, Hopkin, Dawkin, Dakin etc. Also, Jen, Jan and Jon are perfectly good medieval English forms of John. So for the medieval English person, Jankin would not seem like a 'Flemish' name...
As with the Welsh/Irish names one needs access to the native records to get the clearest view. For that reason I am always impressed with and interested in what you have to say on Northern European names. :)
I prefer not to repeat name 'expert' errors if I can avoid it. :)
Regarding the Flemish weavers, it's surely true that they popularized the names Jankin, Jenkin and Jonkin. In fact, digging around on the net this morning, I found a record claiming that Flemish settlers arrived in South Wales around 1100, and more in 1300(ish) which might go some way to explaining the popularity of Jenkin in Wales. However, it's also to be remembered that there were people of all origins with William the Conqueror, and the diminutive suffix -kin probably arrived in the UK with the Normans. In the Welsh sample alone I have Watkin, Wilkin, Tomkin, Hopkin, Dawkin, Dakin etc. Also, Jen, Jan and Jon are perfectly good medieval English forms of John. So for the medieval English person, Jankin would not seem like a 'Flemish' name...
As with the Welsh/Irish names one needs access to the native records to get the clearest view. For that reason I am always impressed with and interested in what you have to say on Northern European names. :)
1
Yes, there is!
Hi again!
The connection between Jacques and Jack is very much newer than the original one, but still - it exists!
I'd never say that for a medieval English person Jankin seemed to be a Flemish name (as I don't know what a medieval English person thought) - I just wanted to show the way that name took to make the connection between John and Jack clear.
Satu
Hi again!
The connection between Jacques and Jack is very much newer than the original one, but still - it exists!
I'd never say that for a medieval English person Jankin seemed to be a Flemish name (as I don't know what a medieval English person thought) - I just wanted to show the way that name took to make the connection between John and Jack clear.
Satu
1
There's no etymological connection - that's what I mean by name book error...
Nor do I know anyone in the UK who uses Jacques for Jack or vice-versa. Perhaps they do in Northern mainland Europe?
The connection between Jack and John is still well known in the UK (although it is not as well understood in the States).
Some books claim that Alice means 'truth' - it doesn't. Just because books claim it and people repeat it, doesn't mean there's a connection. It means there is an error.
I would differentiate here; perhaps you would not. Certainly, producing a PhD. has sharpened my perspective on this :)
Nor do I know anyone in the UK who uses Jacques for Jack or vice-versa. Perhaps they do in Northern mainland Europe?
The connection between Jack and John is still well known in the UK (although it is not as well understood in the States).
Some books claim that Alice means 'truth' - it doesn't. Just because books claim it and people repeat it, doesn't mean there's a connection. It means there is an error.
I would differentiate here; perhaps you would not. Certainly, producing a PhD. has sharpened my perspective on this :)
1
With all due respect, Merriment...
I've been pretty much in your corner all along in this debate. But pulling out the PhD by no means indicates that your perspective may be sharper than someone else's. :)
It merely means that you've done your homework. (And commendably so).
Ya know... Here in the U.S., we who have degrees have a saying about what the abbreviations of said degrees might be taken to stand for. Just so's we don't start thinking too highly of ourselves. :)
BS = Bull Shit
MS = More Shit (Hey, that's mine!)
PhD = Piled High and Deep
:)
-- Nanaea
I've been pretty much in your corner all along in this debate. But pulling out the PhD by no means indicates that your perspective may be sharper than someone else's. :)
It merely means that you've done your homework. (And commendably so).
Ya know... Here in the U.S., we who have degrees have a saying about what the abbreviations of said degrees might be taken to stand for. Just so's we don't start thinking too highly of ourselves. :)
BS = Bull Shit
MS = More Shit (Hey, that's mine!)
PhD = Piled High and Deep
:)
-- Nanaea
1
Eheu!
The PhD thing was more of an explanation of my perspective (given I've not submitted it yet, it would be a little foolish to boast about it). Names are a hobby for most people - for me, they were my job for 4 years.
Currently my PhD. is indeed piled high and deep on my desk - 340 pages of best recycling material :)
First final draft to my supervisor today....
ps. What do BA Hons, MPhil and MA Cantab stand for?
('cos those are my current letters)
You can make it up.....be evil.
The PhD thing was more of an explanation of my perspective (given I've not submitted it yet, it would be a little foolish to boast about it). Names are a hobby for most people - for me, they were my job for 4 years.
Currently my PhD. is indeed piled high and deep on my desk - 340 pages of best recycling material :)
First final draft to my supervisor today....
ps. What do BA Hons, MPhil and MA Cantab stand for?
('cos those are my current letters)
You can make it up.....be evil.
1
Congrats on nearing the completion of the doctorate, no doubt well-earned as evidenced by your many scholarly contributions to this board.
As for what the other degrees might stand for... I may be evil, but I'm by no means that creative. ;)
-- Nanaea
As for what the other degrees might stand for... I may be evil, but I'm by no means that creative. ;)
-- Nanaea
1