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ArchivesISABEL once again
There was a nice little discussion about the origin of the name Isabel on this board a couple of days ago. I'd like to take up that thread once more, this time the ELIZABETH - ISABEL connection.
My namebooks are rather reluctant about this, stating it as a possible derivation of ISABEL and always considering other options as well (such as ISEBEL). Now I would like to know more about the Spanish side: How likely is it, that a name like Elizabeth would undergo such changes? ELISA and to ISA and BETH to BEL (like in ARABELLA). Are there any parallels for such contractions and changes with other Spanish names? I'm thinking of CARMEN from CARMEL. Any ideas?
And what role would ISEBEL play in mediaeval Spain?
My namebooks are rather reluctant about this, stating it as a possible derivation of ISABEL and always considering other options as well (such as ISEBEL). Now I would like to know more about the Spanish side: How likely is it, that a name like Elizabeth would undergo such changes? ELISA and to ISA and BETH to BEL (like in ARABELLA). Are there any parallels for such contractions and changes with other Spanish names? I'm thinking of CARMEN from CARMEL. Any ideas?
And what role would ISEBEL play in mediaeval Spain?
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Replies
I didnt understand for Ealasaid > Elizabeth either. I think its just a blending of tongues (Like American people can't say Oriental names). They talk about other derivations of Isabel (daughter of Baal), so perhaps it was a mixing of the local Spanish tradition blending with the new Christian names
Once again I am not an expert . This is my own educated guess.
Once again I am not an expert . This is my own educated guess.
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Before learning of the Elizabeth / Isabel connection, I thought it came from "isha Baal", "wife of Baal", and wondered why Christians used it lol
~~ Claire ~~
My ! are Alia, Eidel, Enola, Israel, Dudel, Yuri, Lina, Lorelei, Leilani, Owen, Julian, Glorinda, Mirinda
My ? are Hillel, Meshullam, Johnny, Ginny, Cordelia, Fiammetta, Yocheved
My ~ are Tehila, Tilda, Hailey, Gillian, Huldah
My / are Aglaia and July
~~ Claire ~~
My ! are Alia, Eidel, Enola, Israel, Dudel, Yuri, Lina, Lorelei, Leilani, Owen, Julian, Glorinda, Mirinda
My ? are Hillel, Meshullam, Johnny, Ginny, Cordelia, Fiammetta, Yocheved
My ~ are Tehila, Tilda, Hailey, Gillian, Huldah
My / are Aglaia and July
1
I've heard about this theory, too. But I've always wondered, how Shin should turn to Zayin. As far as I know the two letters are not related or interchangeable in any way; at least not in Hebrew, I don't know about Phoenician. Or does the name Ishabel exist? All I can find in the bible is Eshba'al (1. Chr 8,33) and Ashbel (Gen 46,21), both masculine names.
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I wonder too. Maybe it turned in an European language and not a Semitic one? By misprononciation? When I hear the English way of prononcing Hebrew names, I think everything is possible :p
Apparently Ishbel and Ishabel exist in Scottish though. And Baal was called Bel in Assyria and Palmyra. I also remember that I got a name close to Isabel on a name generator (was it Carthaginese, Phoenician... I don't remember...), something like Ishbal or Ishbel.
~~ Claire ~~
My ! are Alia, Eidel, Enola, Israel, Dudel, Yuri, Lina, Lorelei, Leilani, Owen, Julian, Glorinda, Mirinda
My ? are Hillel, Meshullam, Johnny, Ginny, Cordelia, Fiammetta, Yocheved
My ~ are Tehila, Tilda, Hailey, Gillian, Huldah
My / are Aglaia and July
Apparently Ishbel and Ishabel exist in Scottish though. And Baal was called Bel in Assyria and Palmyra. I also remember that I got a name close to Isabel on a name generator (was it Carthaginese, Phoenician... I don't remember...), something like Ishbal or Ishbel.
~~ Claire ~~
My ! are Alia, Eidel, Enola, Israel, Dudel, Yuri, Lina, Lorelei, Leilani, Owen, Julian, Glorinda, Mirinda
My ? are Hillel, Meshullam, Johnny, Ginny, Cordelia, Fiammetta, Yocheved
My ~ are Tehila, Tilda, Hailey, Gillian, Huldah
My / are Aglaia and July
1
Isebel is unknowned in mediaeval Spanish, in my knowledge.
In Middle Ages, there are some variants of Elisabet (the main form of the name): Elisabel, Elisavel, Elisaven, Elisabe, Elisava, etc. After, in 12th century, the beginning El- was mixed up with the masculine article "el", unsuited for a feminine name: Elisabel>El+Isabel>Isabel.
Note: some people put afore the article in vulgar uses of Spanish (this is a serious mispell, of course): el Antonio, la Juani, etc.
In Middle Ages, there are some variants of Elisabet (the main form of the name): Elisabel, Elisavel, Elisaven, Elisabe, Elisava, etc. After, in 12th century, the beginning El- was mixed up with the masculine article "el", unsuited for a feminine name: Elisabel>El+Isabel>Isabel.
Note: some people put afore the article in vulgar uses of Spanish (this is a serious mispell, of course): el Antonio, la Juani, etc.
1
In the case of Elisabet>Isabel, El- is confused with the masculine article. You can check, among other anthroponimic sources:
Diccionario de nombres propios by Roberto FAURE (Espasa Calpe. Madrid, 2002) (the most reliable and philologically documented)
Los nombres de pila españoles by Consuelo GARCÍA GALLARÍN (Ediciones del Prado. Madrid, 1998)
Diccionario dos nomes galegos by Xesús FERRO et al. (Ir Indo. Vigo, 1998)
Dictionnaire des prénoms by Chantal TANET and Tristan HORDÉ (Larousse. Paris, 2000)
ETA: Diccionario etimológico comparado de nombres propios de persona by Gutierre TIBÓN (Fondo de Cultura Económica. México, 1986, 2a ed.)
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
Diccionario de nombres propios by Roberto FAURE (Espasa Calpe. Madrid, 2002) (the most reliable and philologically documented)
Los nombres de pila españoles by Consuelo GARCÍA GALLARÍN (Ediciones del Prado. Madrid, 1998)
Diccionario dos nomes galegos by Xesús FERRO et al. (Ir Indo. Vigo, 1998)
Dictionnaire des prénoms by Chantal TANET and Tristan HORDÉ (Larousse. Paris, 2000)
ETA: Diccionario etimológico comparado de nombres propios de persona by Gutierre TIBÓN (Fondo de Cultura Económica. México, 1986, 2a ed.)
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
This message was edited 6/28/2005, 12:16 PM
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Elisabet is a Hebrew name and in Spain, in general, names coming from the Old Testament has not been used until 20th century, then the name and its variants could be not clear with respect to gender for the people. Moreover, in the variant Elisabel, the ending is -EL, a typical ending of masculine Biblical names (Daniel, Ismael, Ezequiel, etc.).
In Catalan, there is an ancient variant Isabet (from Elisabet), made in the same way and for the same reasons.
Regarding the sources of ancient forms, they are attested in Repertori d'Antropònims Catalans (RAC), by Jordi BOLÒS and Josep MORAN (Repertoris de la Secció Filològica, II. Institut d'Estudis Catalans. Barcelona, 1994). And they are seen too (whith a fantastic philologycal explanation of the evolution and history of Isabel)in Diccionario de nombres propios by Roberto FAURE (Espasa Calpe. Madrid, 2002).
Same explanation for etymology and history is given in Los nombres de pila españoles by Consuelo GARCÍA GALLARÍN (Ediciones del Prado. Madrid, 1998); Diccionario dos nomes galegos by Xesús FERRO et al. (Ir Indo. Vigo, 1998); and Dictionnaire des prénoms by Chantal TANET and Tristan HORDÉ (Larousse. Paris, 2000).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
In Catalan, there is an ancient variant Isabet (from Elisabet), made in the same way and for the same reasons.
Regarding the sources of ancient forms, they are attested in Repertori d'Antropònims Catalans (RAC), by Jordi BOLÒS and Josep MORAN (Repertoris de la Secció Filològica, II. Institut d'Estudis Catalans. Barcelona, 1994). And they are seen too (whith a fantastic philologycal explanation of the evolution and history of Isabel)in Diccionario de nombres propios by Roberto FAURE (Espasa Calpe. Madrid, 2002).
Same explanation for etymology and history is given in Los nombres de pila españoles by Consuelo GARCÍA GALLARÍN (Ediciones del Prado. Madrid, 1998); Diccionario dos nomes galegos by Xesús FERRO et al. (Ir Indo. Vigo, 1998); and Dictionnaire des prénoms by Chantal TANET and Tristan HORDÉ (Larousse. Paris, 2000).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
This message was edited 6/21/2005, 11:32 AM
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Again this is very interesting. I realise now, that I have little idea of naming traditions in Spain. Almost no Old Testament names before the 20th century – I guess this is due to the fact that Spain is a Catholic country. You won’t find many OT names in Germany either before the 19th cent., but a couple did come into use like Lea, Rebecca or Samuel in the 16th cent. The Reformers pushed them into the public as an opposition to Saints’ names.
I found this in an online dictionary:
isabelino,-a adjetivo Elizabethan, of the Spanish Renaissance
So ISABEL must have long been the Spanish form of Elizabeth/Elisabeth, and I don’t see, how ISEBEL should come in with this.
Thank you also for the books you list.
I found this in an online dictionary:
isabelino,-a adjetivo Elizabethan, of the Spanish Renaissance
So ISABEL must have long been the Spanish form of Elizabeth/Elisabeth, and I don’t see, how ISEBEL should come in with this.
Thank you also for the books you list.
1
In fact Elisabet is a European form of the Hebrew name Elisheva, unless it has a Phoenician origin. :)
~~ Claire ~~
My ! are Alia, Eidel, Enola, Israel, Dudel, Yuri, Lina, Lorelei, Leilani, Owen, Julian, Glorinda, Mirinda
My ? are Hillel, Meshullam, Johnny, Ginny, Cordelia, Fiammetta, Yocheved
My ~ are Tehila, Tilda, Hailey, Gillian, Huldah
My / are Aglaia and July
~~ Claire ~~
My ! are Alia, Eidel, Enola, Israel, Dudel, Yuri, Lina, Lorelei, Leilani, Owen, Julian, Glorinda, Mirinda
My ? are Hillel, Meshullam, Johnny, Ginny, Cordelia, Fiammetta, Yocheved
My ~ are Tehila, Tilda, Hailey, Gillian, Huldah
My / are Aglaia and July
1
When I say "Elisabet is a Hebrew name" obviously this means that Elisabet is a name of Hebrew origin, not the original Hebrew form of the name. In an anthroponymic or philological context, Hebrew, Aramaic, Germanic, Latin or Greek (among others) as adjectivation of "name" means "of Hebrew/Aramaic/Germanic/Latin/Greek origin", not "Hebrew/etc. form".
For example, in BtN:"Greek names include Peter, Luke and Stephen, while Paul and Mark are Latin." And this doesn't mean that Stephen is the Greek form or Mark the Latin form.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
For example, in BtN:"Greek names include Peter, Luke and Stephen, while Paul and Mark are Latin." And this doesn't mean that Stephen is the Greek form or Mark the Latin form.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
This message was edited 6/21/2005, 11:53 PM
1
Ah ok, maybe it's because it's not like this in French :)
~~ Claire ~~
My ! are Alia, Eidel, Enola, Israel, Dudel, Yuri, Lina, Lorelei, Leilani, Owen, Julian, Glorinda, Mirinda
My ? are Hillel, Meshullam, Johnny, Ginny, Cordelia, Fiammetta, Yocheved
My ~ are Tehila, Tilda, Hailey, Gillian, Huldah
My / are Aglaia and July
~~ Claire ~~
My ! are Alia, Eidel, Enola, Israel, Dudel, Yuri, Lina, Lorelei, Leilani, Owen, Julian, Glorinda, Mirinda
My ? are Hillel, Meshullam, Johnny, Ginny, Cordelia, Fiammetta, Yocheved
My ~ are Tehila, Tilda, Hailey, Gillian, Huldah
My / are Aglaia and July
1