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ArchivesLaws and restrictions, part 2
About a month ago I asked you a question about the laws and restrictions in giving names from other countries. I got a lot of response, thank you.
But now I want to ask that same question again. Maybe there are new people, or people who haven´t read it the first time.
I would really like to know what the law says in other countries. What is allowed... but most importantly: what not?
So far I have information about: the Netherlands (where I live), Belgium, Germany, Spain, Finland, Italy, Australia, Turkey and Morocco.
But I would really like to get some more information! So anyone whos has some info, please react!
Thanks!
Irish
But now I want to ask that same question again. Maybe there are new people, or people who haven´t read it the first time.
I would really like to know what the law says in other countries. What is allowed... but most importantly: what not?
So far I have information about: the Netherlands (where I live), Belgium, Germany, Spain, Finland, Italy, Australia, Turkey and Morocco.
But I would really like to get some more information! So anyone whos has some info, please react!
Thanks!
Irish
1
Replies
How interesting I think this discussion is, unfortunately it doesn't help my search for laws...
So please, if anyone knows something. Maybe a link to a site where I can find some more information... Anything..? I can read Dutch, English and German.
So please, if anyone knows something. Maybe a link to a site where I can find some more information... Anything..? I can read Dutch, English and German.
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But it does help you limit your search :-)
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In South Africa we've got several traditions on the go at the same time, so to my knowledge there isn't a rule about naming ... though now that we've got a remarkably democratic (sometimes nannying) Constitution, it might well be possible to challenge a name in court on human rights grounds.
For example: in the bad old days, many Afrikaners supported Nazi Germany, sometimes from conviction, sometimes because England was their ancestral enemy. And one family that I know of named their son (born in the early 40s I suspect) Izan. Nice and subtle - Nazi spelt backwards. Why they wanted a backward Nazi for a son, I'll never know ... the only reason I'm aware of this case is that the naming father became a Cabinet minister (Foreign Affairs), so the family were in the public eye. I would expect that parents trying to register that name or a more modern version (maybe Pol Pot?) might be challenged by the person at the registration desk.
However, then you get black African parents, with their traditions that sound strange to others sometimes. You're Dutch, right? Well, how about naming a baby Oupa? Or Ouma? Happens regularly! And I suppose it makes some sense - rather than use the grandparent's name, you use the word.
There is also a strong tradition of nonce names and omen names: if you win something close to the time of your child's birth, you can name him Lucky. Or her. Or you select a virtue or a quality that you hope the child will embody, like Prudence or Grace, but also like Knowledge, Doctor, or Wiseman.
This would be a challenge to legislators ... to my knowledge they've ducked it so far.
All the best
For example: in the bad old days, many Afrikaners supported Nazi Germany, sometimes from conviction, sometimes because England was their ancestral enemy. And one family that I know of named their son (born in the early 40s I suspect) Izan. Nice and subtle - Nazi spelt backwards. Why they wanted a backward Nazi for a son, I'll never know ... the only reason I'm aware of this case is that the naming father became a Cabinet minister (Foreign Affairs), so the family were in the public eye. I would expect that parents trying to register that name or a more modern version (maybe Pol Pot?) might be challenged by the person at the registration desk.
However, then you get black African parents, with their traditions that sound strange to others sometimes. You're Dutch, right? Well, how about naming a baby Oupa? Or Ouma? Happens regularly! And I suppose it makes some sense - rather than use the grandparent's name, you use the word.
There is also a strong tradition of nonce names and omen names: if you win something close to the time of your child's birth, you can name him Lucky. Or her. Or you select a virtue or a quality that you hope the child will embody, like Prudence or Grace, but also like Knowledge, Doctor, or Wiseman.
This would be a challenge to legislators ... to my knowledge they've ducked it so far.
All the best
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Talking of backwards, Lenin = Ninel
I know of a union leader, whose fn is Ninel. Obviously her parents admired Lenin.
I think that Ninel is a pretty name, though I don't like Lenin. Ninel sounds soft and similar to Nina.
I assume that Lenin would not have been accepted by the authorities, neither for girl or boy. Even though there are similar names like Lena, Lenita and Lennart.
Never heard of anyone named Nilats though.
I know of a union leader, whose fn is Ninel. Obviously her parents admired Lenin.
I think that Ninel is a pretty name, though I don't like Lenin. Ninel sounds soft and similar to Nina.
I assume that Lenin would not have been accepted by the authorities, neither for girl or boy. Even though there are similar names like Lena, Lenita and Lennart.
Never heard of anyone named Nilats though.
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Thank you, very interesting
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Nowadays most anything goes in Sweden
My poor translation of the name law:
The child can have one or many first names.
A fn must not be considered offensive or leading to discomfort for the child. It must not sound too much like a surname.
(Barnet kan få ett eller flera förnamn. Ett förnamn ska inte kunna uppfattas som stötande eller kunna tänkas leda till obehag för barnet. Det får inte heller ha påtaglig efternamnskaraktär.)
For example, a Swedish Nazi may want to give his son Hitler as fn but it would not be allowed in Sweden.
If someone wanted to name their son Pitt, it would not be allowed either I think, b/c it would lead to discomfort for the child. A name like Apple would not have been allowed before but nowadays it might be allowed.
My poor translation of the name law:
The child can have one or many first names.
A fn must not be considered offensive or leading to discomfort for the child. It must not sound too much like a surname.
(Barnet kan få ett eller flera förnamn. Ett förnamn ska inte kunna uppfattas som stötande eller kunna tänkas leda till obehag för barnet. Det får inte heller ha påtaglig efternamnskaraktär.)
For example, a Swedish Nazi may want to give his son Hitler as fn but it would not be allowed in Sweden.
If someone wanted to name their son Pitt, it would not be allowed either I think, b/c it would lead to discomfort for the child. A name like Apple would not have been allowed before but nowadays it might be allowed.
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Name laws in France
You can check the laws about names in France at:
http://www.meilleursprenoms.com/site/Legislation/legislation.htm
You can check the laws about names in France at:
http://www.meilleursprenoms.com/site/Legislation/legislation.htm
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Thanks, but I don't speak French... Maybe anyone can translate it?
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I'm not sure just what you mean. You question is can people name their children w/ names from different countries? Where I live, the United States, you can name your child basically anything you please. No restrictions or anything.
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That's not really what I mean... I shall give you an example.
In the Netherlands there are 2 restrictions:
1) you can't give a name people can make jokes of
2) you can't give a name which is only used as a last name. For instance Jansen is a very common last name, but not in use as a first name. But Thomas is both used as a first name and a last name. So that's allowed. And Jansen isn't.
Maybe, now it's more clear what I mean?
In the Netherlands there are 2 restrictions:
1) you can't give a name people can make jokes of
2) you can't give a name which is only used as a last name. For instance Jansen is a very common last name, but not in use as a first name. But Thomas is both used as a first name and a last name. So that's allowed. And Jansen isn't.
Maybe, now it's more clear what I mean?
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Here, go to this site so you can learn about it: http://rainbowwarrior.coa.edu/laura/namelaws.html
"If you can't laugh at yourself, life is going to seem a whole lot long than you'd like." - Garden State
Hannah
Hannah
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Can someone comment on the cultural history of these laws? Barring societies that feel themselves `threatened' by the modern world (I know this is kind of vague: I mean to include obvious examples Amerindian and Australian tribes), is it only a Judaeo-christian-muslim (Does Israel have such laws?) phenomenon?
Does China have/retain such laws/strong tradition? Korea? Japan?
What about non-muslim Africa?
India does not that I know of.
Does China have/retain such laws/strong tradition? Korea? Japan?
What about non-muslim Africa?
India does not that I know of.
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Well, Chinese is written with Chinese characters
So you simply have to make a Chinese name out of a Western name if you live in China. How else would you be able to write it in Chinese? And if you want the name to sound good, it must look good and have a good meaning too. A Marie becomes Meili etc.
America btw is Mei-guo, which means "Beautiful country". I told you names must have a good meaning. ;)
In Iceland, they received Vietamese boat refugees some years ago. Everyone had to get an Icelandic name. Iceland is a small country with a great cultural tradition, I imagine they want to keep their culture. They don't have ordinary surnames either, but the name of the father (or mother). Vigdis Finnbogadottir for instance.
So you simply have to make a Chinese name out of a Western name if you live in China. How else would you be able to write it in Chinese? And if you want the name to sound good, it must look good and have a good meaning too. A Marie becomes Meili etc.
America btw is Mei-guo, which means "Beautiful country". I told you names must have a good meaning. ;)
In Iceland, they received Vietamese boat refugees some years ago. Everyone had to get an Icelandic name. Iceland is a small country with a great cultural tradition, I imagine they want to keep their culture. They don't have ordinary surnames either, but the name of the father (or mother). Vigdis Finnbogadottir for instance.
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The question is not whether it must have a meaning in chinese: I agree with you that anything written in Kanji automatically has a meaning. This applies not only to Chinese, but also to Japanese, where, one needs, for some sense of need, a Kanji name for his/her official stamp. The question is whether one is allowed to `invent' a name. So, if there never has been a MeiLi in known chinese memory, can one still name a baby MeiLi?
My question about iceland is which of the following statements best (in the sense of mutual information across all nations or national identities) explains the law that one needs an icelandic name (Incidentally, I am guessing icelandic name does not mean `has a meaning in icelandic', rather it means `has been historically used in iceland'):
(a) iceland is worried about its culture getting diluted.
(b) iceland is European
(c) iceland is Judaeo-christian-muslim
Note that a country might easily explain its own rule by quoting (a), but it is possible that the best explanation is not actually (a). For (a) to be the best explanation in my sense, one has to check whether a disproportionately high fraction of nations with similar rules also are worried about the culture or vice-versa; compared to similar statements with (b) and (c).
Is this thread still on-topic? Else, please feel free to take it off board.
---
http://tanmoy.tripod.com/
My question about iceland is which of the following statements best (in the sense of mutual information across all nations or national identities) explains the law that one needs an icelandic name (Incidentally, I am guessing icelandic name does not mean `has a meaning in icelandic', rather it means `has been historically used in iceland'):
(a) iceland is worried about its culture getting diluted.
(b) iceland is European
(c) iceland is Judaeo-christian-muslim
Note that a country might easily explain its own rule by quoting (a), but it is possible that the best explanation is not actually (a). For (a) to be the best explanation in my sense, one has to check whether a disproportionately high fraction of nations with similar rules also are worried about the culture or vice-versa; compared to similar statements with (b) and (c).
Is this thread still on-topic? Else, please feel free to take it off board.
---
http://tanmoy.tripod.com/
1
In theory, parents invent their children's names
So the accusation "this name is made-up" would be rather pointless there. The parents (or the paternal grandfather) make up the names. There used to be a "generation part", common for all siblings (or all siblings of the same sex) and an individula part.
Examples: Ai-ling, Chong-ling and Mei-ling for three sisters.
In practise, parents have limited imagination so therefore there are many children with the same names. Also, while some names sound good for both sexes, some are definitely for girls (names with flowers for instance).
I have no proof but I am certain that in Iceland it depends on a). Many Icelandic names are old names, used before Christianity was introduced. So c) does not apply. And I don't see what European has to do with, since other European countries don't have the same rules. In Sweden, for instance, immigrants keep their names, however strange they may sound to Swedish ears.
So the accusation "this name is made-up" would be rather pointless there. The parents (or the paternal grandfather) make up the names. There used to be a "generation part", common for all siblings (or all siblings of the same sex) and an individula part.
Examples: Ai-ling, Chong-ling and Mei-ling for three sisters.
In practise, parents have limited imagination so therefore there are many children with the same names. Also, while some names sound good for both sexes, some are definitely for girls (names with flowers for instance).
I have no proof but I am certain that in Iceland it depends on a). Many Icelandic names are old names, used before Christianity was introduced. So c) does not apply. And I don't see what European has to do with, since other European countries don't have the same rules. In Sweden, for instance, immigrants keep their names, however strange they may sound to Swedish ears.
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"Made-up" versus "made-up"
I said it before, but I'll say it again: there's a difference between the non-etymologically "made-up" and "made-up" as in "I've made up this name by combining x etymological element and y etymological element".
Here, names like Kashynleigh or Taniqua are generally frowned upon because they're made up out of etymologically meaningless pretty-sounding elements. On the other hand, a name like Mativa, made up out of the Germanic elements maht "might"/"strength" and iv "yew", has a legitimate, etymologically tracible meaning. (Of course, Mativa isn't kewt like McKynleigh is, and probably wouldn't appeal to tryndees... but oh well.)
This is an etymology board that just happens to focus on names. When someone says "made up" here, 99% of the time they're talking about the non-etymological made up unless it's specifically stated otherwise by context.
This is off-topic to this post, but I just wanted to clarify what "made up" generally means here. Er... Chinese parents do follow the etymologically-meaningful kind of "made up"... See, I made this post on-topic! :-D
EDIT: + last paragraph
Miranda
"...his fingers trailing over your belly, your thighs quacking..." — From a The Lord of the Rings crapfic
Proud adopter of 15 punctuation marks.
I said it before, but I'll say it again: there's a difference between the non-etymologically "made-up" and "made-up" as in "I've made up this name by combining x etymological element and y etymological element".
Here, names like Kashynleigh or Taniqua are generally frowned upon because they're made up out of etymologically meaningless pretty-sounding elements. On the other hand, a name like Mativa, made up out of the Germanic elements maht "might"/"strength" and iv "yew", has a legitimate, etymologically tracible meaning. (Of course, Mativa isn't kewt like McKynleigh is, and probably wouldn't appeal to tryndees... but oh well.)
This is an etymology board that just happens to focus on names. When someone says "made up" here, 99% of the time they're talking about the non-etymological made up unless it's specifically stated otherwise by context.
This is off-topic to this post, but I just wanted to clarify what "made up" generally means here. Er... Chinese parents do follow the etymologically-meaningful kind of "made up"... See, I made this post on-topic! :-D
EDIT: + last paragraph
"...his fingers trailing over your belly, your thighs quacking..." — From a The Lord of the Rings crapfic
Proud adopter of 15 punctuation marks.
This message was edited 5/10/2005, 6:47 PM
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Thanks.
Thus far I have gathered from your post:
So china does not have a rule enforcing names, but iceland has. The only place where names that we have discussed so far are enforced are currently christian majority and either European or south America whose current culture derives in recent (within a few hundred years) times from Europe. The names that are enforced are often pre-Christian (which, of course, is actually true for most `Christian' names :-)
Can anyone provide evidence that will extend this? (i.e. non-European or non-Christian culture enforcing historical names?)
Thus far I have gathered from your post:
So china does not have a rule enforcing names, but iceland has. The only place where names that we have discussed so far are enforced are currently christian majority and either European or south America whose current culture derives in recent (within a few hundred years) times from Europe. The names that are enforced are often pre-Christian (which, of course, is actually true for most `Christian' names :-)
Can anyone provide evidence that will extend this? (i.e. non-European or non-Christian culture enforcing historical names?)
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