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Ok, I very much know this is a name to discuss names, and I know this doesn't involve names, but it involves language...
And you guys are really good at it, and with such diversity, it is easier and faster to use you as references then look up a million and one books.
If someone knows of a site with a message board that has to do with the study of languages, along the lines of their linguistic characteristics, it would be great, and I would leave y'all alone.
So now to the goods.
This summer I started to create the perfect language, a language without homonyms, or synonyms (because I think they are worthless). Basically each word means only one thing, and you can only take it literally. For eg. you wouldn't say I am eccentric with joy, because eccentric means you are a bit insane. So it is very literal, and therefore less confusing. Also, I am not sure how well this is going to work, but all words have an opposite, so to make less words, you add the prefix 'pe' which literally means no onto the word. Some words will not use pe, and will have another word as opposite because it doesn't make logical sense, or there is no real opposite eg. life and death. So 'eus' means peaceful, 'peeus' means unpeaceful, or warlike, you need to know less words. Now the grammatical part. You can arrange sentences so that one word can work as a noun, adjective, verb and adverb, less words again. So depending where 'eus' appears in the setence, it can mean peace/peacefulness, peaceful, to be peaceful, to be at peace (if you add the word with), and peacefully. I made it more clear with words like 'we'. Because even in english I can say 'we are in love' while talking to someone. That can me I am in love with the person I am talking to and they reciprocate, or I could be talking about someone else and me. So there are two we's, me and you, and me and them. Sentence structure and grammar become very simplistic, but the downfall of it is, the language could never be to poetic and could not be tampered with like English. Inverting order of words would result in changing the entire meaning of the sentence, sentences can become monotone. I have a few ideas of how to overcome this, but they don't work all the time. I want this language to be completely fool proof. Now for the perfect language, it must be simple, therefore in my mind should be phonetic with a few exceptions. The suffix 'pe' used to make an opposite will have it's own symbol, therefore so will yes, also for ('sa'), and the have their own symbol. 'a' doesn't because it is the sound 'oo' (im not sure out to write this, like ew but less harsh). Therefore it is only one symbol anyway. Now I want to encompass all possible sounds used in modern languages (and main ancient/older languages) that I cannot find in english, I have found a few.
R - the r in french that is made by vibrating the uvula at the back of the throat in a guttural nasal sound
R - the rolled r sound made in spanish, and in german (not as rolled as harshly), made by vibrating the tip of the tongue against the roof of your mouth
Ch - the ch sound found in gaelic, such as the word 'loch', made similary as the french 'r', it is rather nasal and made at the back of the throat, sometimes written as kh to keep out the confusion of beind related to the english ch sound, like in church
Now I heard in Egyptian they have a 'ha' sound we don't have in English. Part of the problem I am coming across is distinguishing sounds that are made by putting a few sounds together, and sounds that are unique. These problems are arising out of mostly the logarithmic languages like Chinese, where they have 'min' instead of the sounds 'm', 'ei' and 'n'.
So all of you with your vast language view, if you have some other ones, they would be much appreciated.
A few questions, in German I know they have a character that looks something like a B, more like a beta symbol. This makes a double s sound. Is this sound accomplished by putting to s' together, or is it unique. If it is the later, can you try to explain how to make the sound.
Also I am having trouble with the letter z.
In English I see it written as a 'zh' sound. This is true, if you think of like zap for example. It is like zzzz..haaa… ppp. Sounded out. But for zebra, I don't see the h sound after the z, apparently it is always there. Then I look at the words leisure and seizure. Now the 's' or 'z' sound respectively sounds like some bizarre mix of a a softer slow j thro clenched teeth, and an unhissing s. Like leijsure. Anyone know what I mean? Can someone explain this sound to me?
Wow this is long, so ill end it.
If you have any ideas on a 'perfect language' or any of the struggles I am having, an ideas and criticism (as long as constructive) is appreciated.
Thank you for taking your time to read this.
~Silver
And you guys are really good at it, and with such diversity, it is easier and faster to use you as references then look up a million and one books.
If someone knows of a site with a message board that has to do with the study of languages, along the lines of their linguistic characteristics, it would be great, and I would leave y'all alone.
So now to the goods.
This summer I started to create the perfect language, a language without homonyms, or synonyms (because I think they are worthless). Basically each word means only one thing, and you can only take it literally. For eg. you wouldn't say I am eccentric with joy, because eccentric means you are a bit insane. So it is very literal, and therefore less confusing. Also, I am not sure how well this is going to work, but all words have an opposite, so to make less words, you add the prefix 'pe' which literally means no onto the word. Some words will not use pe, and will have another word as opposite because it doesn't make logical sense, or there is no real opposite eg. life and death. So 'eus' means peaceful, 'peeus' means unpeaceful, or warlike, you need to know less words. Now the grammatical part. You can arrange sentences so that one word can work as a noun, adjective, verb and adverb, less words again. So depending where 'eus' appears in the setence, it can mean peace/peacefulness, peaceful, to be peaceful, to be at peace (if you add the word with), and peacefully. I made it more clear with words like 'we'. Because even in english I can say 'we are in love' while talking to someone. That can me I am in love with the person I am talking to and they reciprocate, or I could be talking about someone else and me. So there are two we's, me and you, and me and them. Sentence structure and grammar become very simplistic, but the downfall of it is, the language could never be to poetic and could not be tampered with like English. Inverting order of words would result in changing the entire meaning of the sentence, sentences can become monotone. I have a few ideas of how to overcome this, but they don't work all the time. I want this language to be completely fool proof. Now for the perfect language, it must be simple, therefore in my mind should be phonetic with a few exceptions. The suffix 'pe' used to make an opposite will have it's own symbol, therefore so will yes, also for ('sa'), and the have their own symbol. 'a' doesn't because it is the sound 'oo' (im not sure out to write this, like ew but less harsh). Therefore it is only one symbol anyway. Now I want to encompass all possible sounds used in modern languages (and main ancient/older languages) that I cannot find in english, I have found a few.
R - the r in french that is made by vibrating the uvula at the back of the throat in a guttural nasal sound
R - the rolled r sound made in spanish, and in german (not as rolled as harshly), made by vibrating the tip of the tongue against the roof of your mouth
Ch - the ch sound found in gaelic, such as the word 'loch', made similary as the french 'r', it is rather nasal and made at the back of the throat, sometimes written as kh to keep out the confusion of beind related to the english ch sound, like in church
Now I heard in Egyptian they have a 'ha' sound we don't have in English. Part of the problem I am coming across is distinguishing sounds that are made by putting a few sounds together, and sounds that are unique. These problems are arising out of mostly the logarithmic languages like Chinese, where they have 'min' instead of the sounds 'm', 'ei' and 'n'.
So all of you with your vast language view, if you have some other ones, they would be much appreciated.
A few questions, in German I know they have a character that looks something like a B, more like a beta symbol. This makes a double s sound. Is this sound accomplished by putting to s' together, or is it unique. If it is the later, can you try to explain how to make the sound.
Also I am having trouble with the letter z.
In English I see it written as a 'zh' sound. This is true, if you think of like zap for example. It is like zzzz..haaa… ppp. Sounded out. But for zebra, I don't see the h sound after the z, apparently it is always there. Then I look at the words leisure and seizure. Now the 's' or 'z' sound respectively sounds like some bizarre mix of a a softer slow j thro clenched teeth, and an unhissing s. Like leijsure. Anyone know what I mean? Can someone explain this sound to me?
Wow this is long, so ill end it.
If you have any ideas on a 'perfect language' or any of the struggles I am having, an ideas and criticism (as long as constructive) is appreciated.
Thank you for taking your time to read this.
~Silver
1
Replies
To Y.
Ok, I hope you aren't getting tired of my incessant questions, if you are, just say, and ill stop
Ok first I don't know what you mean by the vowel "short A"
and I think ay and eh make the same sounds, unless ur thinking the ay to make an i sound
I have a lot more vowels then you do, and i was curious if you want to cross reference
When you say these sounds do not have a voiced or unvoiced form, you mean that when whispered, and when spoken u get the same sound, right?
Also i was wondering if u wanted to add the guteral French r to ur list.
I didnt understand your last comment concering the w and wh sound.
Do you have some english examples so I can understand the difference.
I am sorry to be redundant, and i am just making sure... but the Spanish sounds ñ and ll are just n+y and l+y and are not needed?
because in ur last response i thought u said as much, but in ur chart the ll leter does show up
Thats all for now
Ty again
~Silver (Phonem Mastah in training!)
Ps. go to askjeeves.com and type in Phonem, you get a lot of info
Ok, I hope you aren't getting tired of my incessant questions, if you are, just say, and ill stop
Ok first I don't know what you mean by the vowel "short A"
and I think ay and eh make the same sounds, unless ur thinking the ay to make an i sound
I have a lot more vowels then you do, and i was curious if you want to cross reference
When you say these sounds do not have a voiced or unvoiced form, you mean that when whispered, and when spoken u get the same sound, right?
Also i was wondering if u wanted to add the guteral French r to ur list.
I didnt understand your last comment concering the w and wh sound.
Do you have some english examples so I can understand the difference.
I am sorry to be redundant, and i am just making sure... but the Spanish sounds ñ and ll are just n+y and l+y and are not needed?
because in ur last response i thought u said as much, but in ur chart the ll leter does show up
Thats all for now
Ty again
~Silver (Phonem Mastah in training!)
Ps. go to askjeeves.com and type in Phonem, you get a lot of info
1
ñ and ll are not needed, just like our English q and x.
wh = what, why, where, when, which. NOT who, whom, whose, whole, whore.
w = was, were, witch, war, west, win.
you mean that when whispered, and when spoken u get the same sound
Right.
eh in set, bet, debt, yet, tell, less. ay in hay, say, weight, wait, date, hate. These sounds are similar, but there is a difference, too.
I've deleted a lot of vowels from my list, because to me: ay = eh-ee, i = ah-ee; oi/oy = oh-ee, ow/ou = ah-oo, etc. But I would like to cross reference on that.
Short a in hat, dad, staff, half, task, bath, swag.
Guttural French r...Yes, probably, but I've no idea what it sounds like. :(
That's not in order, but I think I've answered all your questions. Oh, yes, don't worry about asking me; it makes me feel really grown-up and mature to tell an older person something new! ;P :D Y :)
wh = what, why, where, when, which. NOT who, whom, whose, whole, whore.
w = was, were, witch, war, west, win.
you mean that when whispered, and when spoken u get the same sound
Right.
eh in set, bet, debt, yet, tell, less. ay in hay, say, weight, wait, date, hate. These sounds are similar, but there is a difference, too.
I've deleted a lot of vowels from my list, because to me: ay = eh-ee, i = ah-ee; oi/oy = oh-ee, ow/ou = ah-oo, etc. But I would like to cross reference on that.
Short a in hat, dad, staff, half, task, bath, swag.
Guttural French r...Yes, probably, but I've no idea what it sounds like. :(
That's not in order, but I think I've answered all your questions. Oh, yes, don't worry about asking me; it makes me feel really grown-up and mature to tell an older person something new! ;P :D Y :)
1
Um... im not older... im only 16
1
On constructed languages
Constructed languages are a fascinating topic. Off-hand I can think of the following cases:
-- Esperanto (with which Nanaea is well versed). This international language -- complete with literature -- was originally meant to bind the world closer together. It is a wonderful (if failed) experiment.
-- Macedonian (not to be confused with Greek, the language of Alexander and his Macedonian Empire). A Slavic language constructed under the orders of Marshall Tito for the Bulgarian-speaking people of (the then) southern Yugoslavia. The language is basically Bulgarian, but includes Serbo-Croatian elements, and served Tito’s two-fold strategy of:
a)Alienating the Bulgarian population of Yugoslavia from Bulgaria (for example, Tito decreed that the suffix “-ski” be added to all Bulgarian names in Yugoslavia – eg. Filev became Filevski – and dubbed such names “Macedonian”), and
b)Creating the a setting for potential Yugoslav expansion in Greek Macedonia (which never materialized).
-- Hebrew: Not really constructed, but “revived”. It is amazing how an ancient language was brought back to life and is used as the official language of a (also revived!) country :)
Can anyone think of another "constructed" language? (please dont refer to Klingon!)
Constructed languages are a fascinating topic. Off-hand I can think of the following cases:
-- Esperanto (with which Nanaea is well versed). This international language -- complete with literature -- was originally meant to bind the world closer together. It is a wonderful (if failed) experiment.
-- Macedonian (not to be confused with Greek, the language of Alexander and his Macedonian Empire). A Slavic language constructed under the orders of Marshall Tito for the Bulgarian-speaking people of (the then) southern Yugoslavia. The language is basically Bulgarian, but includes Serbo-Croatian elements, and served Tito’s two-fold strategy of:
a)Alienating the Bulgarian population of Yugoslavia from Bulgaria (for example, Tito decreed that the suffix “-ski” be added to all Bulgarian names in Yugoslavia – eg. Filev became Filevski – and dubbed such names “Macedonian”), and
b)Creating the a setting for potential Yugoslav expansion in Greek Macedonia (which never materialized).
-- Hebrew: Not really constructed, but “revived”. It is amazing how an ancient language was brought back to life and is used as the official language of a (also revived!) country :)
Can anyone think of another "constructed" language? (please dont refer to Klingon!)
1
I may be wrong here, but I think that ASL (American Sign Language) is a "constructed" language (as usual, please correct me if I am.)
Second, what, exactly, do you mean by "constructed"? Is there any real time limit that you are giving the language? Sorry for this stupid question. :blush:
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
Second, what, exactly, do you mean by "constructed"? Is there any real time limit that you are giving the language? Sorry for this stupid question. :blush:
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
1
Good question, I used the term loosely, I guess its a matter of degree. Of the three examples I use, I guess Esperanto is the only genuinely "constructed" out of scratch, using ingredients from other languages. For Hebrew, a better term would be "revived". As far a "Macedonian" is concerned, the language pre-existed as a Bulgarian dialect for ages. In 1944 it was named "Macedonian" out of the blue by Tito's government, and its grammar was codified so as to differente it from Bulgarian.
I agree that sign language is constructed. It is unfortunate that nobody thought of constructing an *international* SL. It is tragic that a user of American SL cannot communicate with a user of, say, Italian SL...
I agree that sign language is constructed. It is unfortunate that nobody thought of constructing an *international* SL. It is tragic that a user of American SL cannot communicate with a user of, say, Italian SL...
1
Pavlos:
Didn't you read my reply?? There IS an International Sign Language, called ISL. Go to dww.deafworldweb.org/asl/ and click on More... under International Sign. Y
Didn't you read my reply?? There IS an International Sign Language, called ISL. Go to dww.deafworldweb.org/asl/ and click on More... under International Sign. Y
1
Aha :)
1
I guess it must be; I never thought about it. I think, though, that ISL (International Sign Language) is even more so than AMSLAN is constructed. :)
1
I lived in Yugoslavia for 14 years (untill it fell apart)and I never heard about macedonian being a constructed language! OK, it is true I am from Slovenia, but we learnt some macedonian in elementary school and nobody ever told us this is an artifficial language. So, frankly, I cannot belive this. Where does your information come from?
1
PS
> we learnt some macedonian in elementary school and nobody ever told us this is an artifficial language. So, frankly, I cannot belive this
You were fortunate enough to grow in a non-Stalinist socialist republic (as opposed to say N. Korea or Albania!), however I do hope you did not believe everything taught to you during the Tito regime!
...I never believed *everything* they told me in school, as the "cold war" was raging.
> we learnt some macedonian in elementary school and nobody ever told us this is an artifficial language. So, frankly, I cannot belive this
You were fortunate enough to grow in a non-Stalinist socialist republic (as opposed to say N. Korea or Albania!), however I do hope you did not believe everything taught to you during the Tito regime!
...I never believed *everything* they told me in school, as the "cold war" was raging.
1
More on "Macedonian" as a constructed language
Hi Nana,
I feel I have opened a can of worms! This is a topic where language has been used to serve rival Balkan politics to a large extent, and most sources are extremely biased to be reliable.
My point is that, prior to 1944 the language now known as “Macedonian” was in fact a Bulgarian dialect. After 1944, the dialect was fused with some Serbo-Croatian grammatical rules to differentiate it from Bulgarian.
Here’s the scoop in a nutshell:
- Bulgarians resent the fact that Tito dubbed Yugoslavia’s Bulgarian minority “Macedonian” so as to alienate them from “mother Bulgaria”.
- The government of FYROM is facing increasing hostility from a substantial separatist Albanian minority. They are much better off economically that either Albania or Bulgaria, and try to cling to their “new macedonian” identity, which was established in 1944.
- Greeks resent the fact that a Bulgarian dialect was dubbed “Macedonian,” as they consider that Macedonian heritage was Greek. And by "Greek", I do not imply anything racial - a Greek, or nore accurately a Hellene, is anyone who adopts Hellenic culture and education. And Alexander the Macedon's teacher was after all Aristotle. Besides, Alexander is a Greek name, he spoke Greek, his father Philip had a Greek name, and his horse had a Greek name (Bucephalus). All antiquities and written records found in Macedonia (northern Greece) are in Greek. Macedonia, itself, is derived from the Hellenic “makednos” meaning “tall, long” (Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon”) In brief, if it walks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck!
Hi Nana,
I feel I have opened a can of worms! This is a topic where language has been used to serve rival Balkan politics to a large extent, and most sources are extremely biased to be reliable.
My point is that, prior to 1944 the language now known as “Macedonian” was in fact a Bulgarian dialect. After 1944, the dialect was fused with some Serbo-Croatian grammatical rules to differentiate it from Bulgarian.
Here’s the scoop in a nutshell:
- Bulgarians resent the fact that Tito dubbed Yugoslavia’s Bulgarian minority “Macedonian” so as to alienate them from “mother Bulgaria”.
- The government of FYROM is facing increasing hostility from a substantial separatist Albanian minority. They are much better off economically that either Albania or Bulgaria, and try to cling to their “new macedonian” identity, which was established in 1944.
- Greeks resent the fact that a Bulgarian dialect was dubbed “Macedonian,” as they consider that Macedonian heritage was Greek. And by "Greek", I do not imply anything racial - a Greek, or nore accurately a Hellene, is anyone who adopts Hellenic culture and education. And Alexander the Macedon's teacher was after all Aristotle. Besides, Alexander is a Greek name, he spoke Greek, his father Philip had a Greek name, and his horse had a Greek name (Bucephalus). All antiquities and written records found in Macedonia (northern Greece) are in Greek. Macedonia, itself, is derived from the Hellenic “makednos” meaning “tall, long” (Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon”) In brief, if it walks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck!
1
hmm, interesting...
I found out some things I didn`t know, but I am stil under the impression, that those information sources are not very reliable.
So I am sort of confused now-what is the truth? I would say it is somewhere in between, as usual :))
As I understand, macedonian language was not pure bulgarian even in the past, but sort of variation of bulgarian language and
it evolved in a separate language under the serbian influence. Isn`t that the way the new languages usually develop?
All in all, it is a fact that the inhabitats of Macedonia or FYROM do not feel bulgarian at all, so why not ackowledge that their
language is a unique one and not just a form of bulgarian. After all, slovenian is not so different fom croatian and they are different
languages. Croatian and Serbian are practically identical from my point of view, but are now recognized as two separate languages,
(in my opinion only because of political reasons).
Too bad politisc has to have its influence in everything. Wouldn`t life be more pleasant, if we didn`t have to worry about everything we
say or write in case we insult somebody :)))
I found out some things I didn`t know, but I am stil under the impression, that those information sources are not very reliable.
So I am sort of confused now-what is the truth? I would say it is somewhere in between, as usual :))
As I understand, macedonian language was not pure bulgarian even in the past, but sort of variation of bulgarian language and
it evolved in a separate language under the serbian influence. Isn`t that the way the new languages usually develop?
All in all, it is a fact that the inhabitats of Macedonia or FYROM do not feel bulgarian at all, so why not ackowledge that their
language is a unique one and not just a form of bulgarian. After all, slovenian is not so different fom croatian and they are different
languages. Croatian and Serbian are practically identical from my point of view, but are now recognized as two separate languages,
(in my opinion only because of political reasons).
Too bad politisc has to have its influence in everything. Wouldn`t life be more pleasant, if we didn`t have to worry about everything we
say or write in case we insult somebody :)))
1
> So I am sort of confused now-what is the truth? I would say it is somewhere in between, as usual :))
Indeed! I agree with you that the dialect in question existed for ages. My point is that nobody called this language "macedonian" before 1944, and that after 1944 its grammar was codified.
> Wouldn`t life be more pleasant, if we didn`t have to worry about everything we say or write in case we insult somebody :)))
I drink to that, Nana :)
Indeed! I agree with you that the dialect in question existed for ages. My point is that nobody called this language "macedonian" before 1944, and that after 1944 its grammar was codified.
> Wouldn`t life be more pleasant, if we didn`t have to worry about everything we say or write in case we insult somebody :)))
I drink to that, Nana :)
1
You somehow...
...reminded me of an old posting of mine way back in 2000 when I was CheBanana:
http://www.behindthename.com/wwwboardarc/messages/2276.html
...reminded me of an old posting of mine way back in 2000 when I was CheBanana:
http://www.behindthename.com/wwwboardarc/messages/2276.html
1
Pavlos (aka CheBanana)...
...what have I told you about mixing your medication with Cuban rum? *glares at Pavlos, arms crossed in front (in the same pose as Pavlos has when he catches his Erisian disciple getting into mischief)*
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
...what have I told you about mixing your medication with Cuban rum? *glares at Pavlos, arms crossed in front (in the same pose as Pavlos has when he catches his Erisian disciple getting into mischief)*
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
1
That's neat!
1
lol, i thoroughly enjoyed that, thanks for the laugh ;-)
1
A note to Yahalome
Salut Yahalome,
I have a few questions in regards to your email.
1) what sounds do the following letters sounds make
dh?
ll?
ñ?
2) what do you mean voiced and unvoiced?
3) what about the vowel oy like from toy, nd uw like from two, but to me sounds like the double oo sound, but so many sites say it is unique
4) the word long, the 'ong' sound, is it made of other elements, or is it unique? (aw+n+ng??)
5) the word picture, can be pronounced like 'peik-chuhr' or u can say the 'ch' part with a t like sound, where the t and ch kind of blur together
any help from anyone on this is much appreicated
TY
~Silver
Salut Yahalome,
I have a few questions in regards to your email.
1) what sounds do the following letters sounds make
dh?
ll?
ñ?
2) what do you mean voiced and unvoiced?
3) what about the vowel oy like from toy, nd uw like from two, but to me sounds like the double oo sound, but so many sites say it is unique
4) the word long, the 'ong' sound, is it made of other elements, or is it unique? (aw+n+ng??)
5) the word picture, can be pronounced like 'peik-chuhr' or u can say the 'ch' part with a t like sound, where the t and ch kind of blur together
any help from anyone on this is much appreicated
TY
~Silver
1
1) what sounds do the following letters make
dh? D = voiced, T = unvoiced; TH(DH) in 'then' = voiced, TH in 'thin'
= unvoiced
ll? This is the Spanish letter, elle, pronounced el-yay, sound y or
ly: i.e. surname Padilla = pah-dee-yah or pah-deel-yah depending on
where in what Spanish-speaking country you are.
ñ? Again, eñe, ane-yay, sound ny: i.e. English canyon is from Sp. cañon, cahn-yone.
2) what do you mean voiced and unvoiced? See my second reply.
3) what about the vowel oy like from toy, nd uw like from two, but to me sounds like the double oo sound, but so many sites say it is unique
oy: say oh-ee fast. Two is oo, as far as I know.
4) the word long, the 'ong' sound, is it made of other elements, or is it unique? (aw+n+ng??)
ong, ing, ang, eng, ung are all ()ng, which is a unique sound, and
represented by the letter n with that little loop, which is borrowed
from the International Phonetic Alphabet. In ink and finger, the k
and g make the n have that sound, but because the k is not a g, it
keeps it's own sound, because the g is followed by other letters, it
keeps it's own sound.
5) the word picture, can be pronounced like 'peik-chuhr' or u can say the 'ch' part with a t like sound, where the t and ch kind of blur together
Pik-cher. The ture ending almost always sounds cher. I doen't know why, but this is one of the rules of phonics. I'd say sloppy pronounciation accounts for the other. Oh, and note tion = shun! This is what comes of speaking a melting-pot language!
CH is to me TSH. Try it! I'd say J is DZH. Just voice the same letters. Voiced/unvoiced makes for a lot of variations. Y :)
dh? D = voiced, T = unvoiced; TH(DH) in 'then' = voiced, TH in 'thin'
= unvoiced
ll? This is the Spanish letter, elle, pronounced el-yay, sound y or
ly: i.e. surname Padilla = pah-dee-yah or pah-deel-yah depending on
where in what Spanish-speaking country you are.
ñ? Again, eñe, ane-yay, sound ny: i.e. English canyon is from Sp. cañon, cahn-yone.
2) what do you mean voiced and unvoiced? See my second reply.
3) what about the vowel oy like from toy, nd uw like from two, but to me sounds like the double oo sound, but so many sites say it is unique
oy: say oh-ee fast. Two is oo, as far as I know.
4) the word long, the 'ong' sound, is it made of other elements, or is it unique? (aw+n+ng??)
ong, ing, ang, eng, ung are all ()ng, which is a unique sound, and
represented by the letter n with that little loop, which is borrowed
from the International Phonetic Alphabet. In ink and finger, the k
and g make the n have that sound, but because the k is not a g, it
keeps it's own sound, because the g is followed by other letters, it
keeps it's own sound.
5) the word picture, can be pronounced like 'peik-chuhr' or u can say the 'ch' part with a t like sound, where the t and ch kind of blur together
Pik-cher. The ture ending almost always sounds cher. I doen't know why, but this is one of the rules of phonics. I'd say sloppy pronounciation accounts for the other. Oh, and note tion = shun! This is what comes of speaking a melting-pot language!
CH is to me TSH. Try it! I'd say J is DZH. Just voice the same letters. Voiced/unvoiced makes for a lot of variations. Y :)
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i think i get sumthin...
ok when u say unvoiced u mean the sound is jsut made by pushing air thro
but voiced means a vibration of the vocal chords, right?
~Silver
ok when u say unvoiced u mean the sound is jsut made by pushing air thro
but voiced means a vibration of the vocal chords, right?
~Silver
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When you whisper ZEBRA, it sounds like SEPRA because Z and B are voiced. S and P are the unvoiced forms of those. But if you say, SUPPER, in a whisper, the consonants sound no different than aloud. :)
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Basically then...
An unvoiced phonetic is not actually a proper sound, but air being pushed air through a shape made by the back of the throat, mouth, or tongue (against the roof of mouth, teeth, or nothing at all)
A voiced phoentic is actually a sound, created by the vibration of the vocal chords, uvula, tongue, or something in the mouth that makes the air in the mouth cavity oscilate.
So I get that much.
I cant find any usage for the spanish ñ sound. Is it even needed, cant just a n+y sound be used?
The same with the ll sound, can't just l+y be used?
I get dh and nj now, thanks.
Even in pronouncing "oh-ee" fast, the oh and ee parts are distinct, unless u slur them together, which would be creating a new phonetic would it not?
I still have a problem with two. Try saying "Tew", "too" and then two like u normally would, perhaps its my nothren candian french/native accent influencing something, but i hear a 'u' like sound.
I find a big difference in CH comparred to TSH, but i seem the similarity of J to DZH, but i think J is unique again.
Thanks for ne comments on this.
~Silver
An unvoiced phonetic is not actually a proper sound, but air being pushed air through a shape made by the back of the throat, mouth, or tongue (against the roof of mouth, teeth, or nothing at all)
A voiced phoentic is actually a sound, created by the vibration of the vocal chords, uvula, tongue, or something in the mouth that makes the air in the mouth cavity oscilate.
So I get that much.
I cant find any usage for the spanish ñ sound. Is it even needed, cant just a n+y sound be used?
The same with the ll sound, can't just l+y be used?
I get dh and nj now, thanks.
Even in pronouncing "oh-ee" fast, the oh and ee parts are distinct, unless u slur them together, which would be creating a new phonetic would it not?
I still have a problem with two. Try saying "Tew", "too" and then two like u normally would, perhaps its my nothren candian french/native accent influencing something, but i hear a 'u' like sound.
I find a big difference in CH comparred to TSH, but i seem the similarity of J to DZH, but i think J is unique again.
Thanks for ne comments on this.
~Silver
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First paragraph correct.
Yes, in English we do just use ny, and on;y in words borrowed from Spanish, but they are so much a part of my life, I just thought I'd add them. (You'd be surprised at the Hispanic population in my part of Oregon.) But think of X and Q. I suppose I could say Q is related to C or K, but, well, I've only started this in the past six months, and it isn't well researched. If you or any other surfer know of a free source for THE International Phonetic Alphabet, I'd appreciate it.
Y is actually the sound in-between ee and another vowel. So in oh-ee, you shorten the ee sound a bit.
There are two distinct sounds, oo and ew. oo has a long U sound, and ew is in mew like a cat but not sew. But then, when my mom says them, I can hear a very distinct difference, but when I do, I can't hear any. AND all these sounds vary from state to state in the U.S., and in England it's worse, and then there's Canada, Australia, etc.! So it's hard to give a letter combination a particular sound that never varies.
Say TSH as t'-sh' fast, with the apostrophe as a tiny neutral letter. Same with DZH. Y :)
Yes, in English we do just use ny, and on;y in words borrowed from Spanish, but they are so much a part of my life, I just thought I'd add them. (You'd be surprised at the Hispanic population in my part of Oregon.) But think of X and Q. I suppose I could say Q is related to C or K, but, well, I've only started this in the past six months, and it isn't well researched. If you or any other surfer know of a free source for THE International Phonetic Alphabet, I'd appreciate it.
Y is actually the sound in-between ee and another vowel. So in oh-ee, you shorten the ee sound a bit.
There are two distinct sounds, oo and ew. oo has a long U sound, and ew is in mew like a cat but not sew. But then, when my mom says them, I can hear a very distinct difference, but when I do, I can't hear any. AND all these sounds vary from state to state in the U.S., and in England it's worse, and then there's Canada, Australia, etc.! So it's hard to give a letter combination a particular sound that never varies.
Say TSH as t'-sh' fast, with the apostrophe as a tiny neutral letter. Same with DZH. Y :)
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my dad has one
My dad uses Phonemes at work and told me of a site that has the complete listof 72 phonemes.
When he gives it to me, ill pass it on.
Again, I am canadian, and still have a bit of my french/native accent from when i used to live up north so i do pronunce some words rather strangly. That and one grandparent is scottish and the other austrian, and then have wierd ways of saying words that I have picked up.
But when i say tsh it has a sharp ending, whereas the sh doesnt give u that.
If i try to say church by saying 'tshurch' it does work, i see ur point, but u still dont get the hard sound that ch gives you.
Perhaps its more horrible accent which i hate!!!
I hope to stay in touch with this, thanks for your help
~Silver
My dad uses Phonemes at work and told me of a site that has the complete listof 72 phonemes.
When he gives it to me, ill pass it on.
Again, I am canadian, and still have a bit of my french/native accent from when i used to live up north so i do pronunce some words rather strangly. That and one grandparent is scottish and the other austrian, and then have wierd ways of saying words that I have picked up.
But when i say tsh it has a sharp ending, whereas the sh doesnt give u that.
If i try to say church by saying 'tshurch' it does work, i see ur point, but u still dont get the hard sound that ch gives you.
Perhaps its more horrible accent which i hate!!!
I hope to stay in touch with this, thanks for your help
~Silver
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Oh, don't say that! I love accents! My mom can imitate a lot of accents-Southern USA, British, Aussie, etc. ;)
You almost have to consider sh as one letter, and say them like sTh, but I have an odd accent myself, so maybe it's just me. People are always saying I have "such a sweet accent", but my parents and brother don't have it. Also our family has shreds of Southern USA in our speech. I think I've picked up a lot of bits and pieces from my mom's imitations, too. Y :)
You almost have to consider sh as one letter, and say them like sTh, but I have an odd accent myself, so maybe it's just me. People are always saying I have "such a sweet accent", but my parents and brother don't have it. Also our family has shreds of Southern USA in our speech. I think I've picked up a lot of bits and pieces from my mom's imitations, too. Y :)
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one more thing on the loopy n
In french i noticed when pronouncing a lot of words with n in them, when a gutteral vowel came before a vary queer sound resulted
this is easiestly noted in the word 'un' with is like 'uhn' but without a hard n, more a soft n, made at the back of the mouth, rather then the front with the tongue.
This sounds just like ng' sound.
Just wanted to share that :)
~Silvah!
In french i noticed when pronouncing a lot of words with n in them, when a gutteral vowel came before a vary queer sound resulted
this is easiestly noted in the word 'un' with is like 'uhn' but without a hard n, more a soft n, made at the back of the mouth, rather then the front with the tongue.
This sounds just like ng' sound.
Just wanted to share that :)
~Silvah!
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Interesting! I have very little French contact, can only barely pronounce a few common words, and have never heard it spoken, so...! Bon jour! (How the...excuse me...do you pronounce "jour"? And good what? :D) Y :\
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lol! questions on q, x, wh, and w
ok ok,
Bonjour is one word. Bon = good, jour=day
i find it hard to say how to pronounce it but... 'bohnj jewr-neh" now the reason i put the n in bon as nj, is because it is not pronunced hard like in english, but near the back of the mouth, but not in the throat. This is a result from the vowels sound more slurred and less pronunced. This is coming up a lot in my phoneme difficulty.
Bonnuit or Bon nuit = good night
Bonsoir = good evening
Bonne journee = good journey (say it as a goodbye, like have a good day)
There is no real 'good afternoon' you could say Bon apres-midi... but no one does
Say Salut instead. It is more general and not as proper as Bonjour. It can also be used to say goodbye.
Au'revoir is the proper goodbye, technically meaning 'untill we see eachother again'
I love the french word Adieu - goodbye forever from 'to god' 'a dieu'
English should have a word for goodbye forever, we just steal the french word, lol
ok now for more questions
once again, i would like this opportunity to sound like a broken record and thank you for your help in this endevour
ok q and x, i dont see why we have these letters
i notice u keep them in ur phoentic list, i was curious as to why
x, itself is made of k+z, sekz for example (my apologies to anyone who found that offensive. its a good example!!!)
Usually x can be represented by one of the two letters, or both. I have yet to find a word that needs 'x'.
Ekz-celent, u get the idea
Next q, i find it's usually a k sound. Kwuilt. Do you agree, yes, no?
Next question is on w and wh.
What is the difference.
isnt wh sounds like 'what' just w+h
can u give me some examples
Lots of thankz
~Silvah
ok ok,
Bonjour is one word. Bon = good, jour=day
i find it hard to say how to pronounce it but... 'bohnj jewr-neh" now the reason i put the n in bon as nj, is because it is not pronunced hard like in english, but near the back of the mouth, but not in the throat. This is a result from the vowels sound more slurred and less pronunced. This is coming up a lot in my phoneme difficulty.
Bonnuit or Bon nuit = good night
Bonsoir = good evening
Bonne journee = good journey (say it as a goodbye, like have a good day)
There is no real 'good afternoon' you could say Bon apres-midi... but no one does
Say Salut instead. It is more general and not as proper as Bonjour. It can also be used to say goodbye.
Au'revoir is the proper goodbye, technically meaning 'untill we see eachother again'
I love the french word Adieu - goodbye forever from 'to god' 'a dieu'
English should have a word for goodbye forever, we just steal the french word, lol
ok now for more questions
once again, i would like this opportunity to sound like a broken record and thank you for your help in this endevour
ok q and x, i dont see why we have these letters
i notice u keep them in ur phoentic list, i was curious as to why
x, itself is made of k+z, sekz for example (my apologies to anyone who found that offensive. its a good example!!!)
Usually x can be represented by one of the two letters, or both. I have yet to find a word that needs 'x'.
Ekz-celent, u get the idea
Next q, i find it's usually a k sound. Kwuilt. Do you agree, yes, no?
Next question is on w and wh.
What is the difference.
isnt wh sounds like 'what' just w+h
can u give me some examples
Lots of thankz
~Silvah
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Bonjour is a strange word. My French teachers pronounced it 'bo-JEW-er' (second two slurred together to make an interesting e sound) with the 'n' in 'bon' nearly impossible to hear and a guttural thingydoo on the end. (French is not as pretty as it's cracked up to be.) In English, though, people just say "bone-JER" or something of that ilk. Going with 'salut' (sah-LOO, I think) is a good suggestion...
English also has 'sayonara'--we steal from multiple cultures. ;)
Silver: Also, 'q' is somethings a 'ch' sound. Still uneeded...
English also has 'sayonara'--we steal from multiple cultures. ;)
Silver: Also, 'q' is somethings a 'ch' sound. Still uneeded...
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> (French is not as pretty as it's cracked up to be.)
I kinda thought so, 'cause here 'they' say it's a beautiful language, and there 'they' say it's very nasal. From my limited experience, nasal languages are just strange, not pretty. Y ;)
I kinda thought so, 'cause here 'they' say it's a beautiful language, and there 'they' say it's very nasal. From my limited experience, nasal languages are just strange, not pretty. Y ;)
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> (French is not as pretty as it's cracked up to be.)
I kinda thought so, 'cause here 'they' say it's a beautiful language, and there 'they' say it's very nasal. From my limited experience, nasal languages are just strange, not pretty. Y ;)
I kinda thought so, 'cause here 'they' say it's a beautiful language, and there 'they' say it's very nasal. From my limited experience, nasal languages are just strange, not pretty. Y ;)
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That was supposed to read "someTIMES a ch sound." Bleh.
"There they" are correct. French is nasal and oozy. (Only mild amounts of offense intended to those of the Francophonish persuasion...)
"There they" are correct. French is nasal and oozy. (Only mild amounts of offense intended to those of the Francophonish persuasion...)
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Q and X are not needed. I've no idea why they're in the alphabet. However several languages have letters like that. Those two Spanish letters, ene and elle. The Hebrew letter Tsadi (tsah-dee) sound ts.
As for wh/w, I think instead of unvoiced/voiced, maybe these are whispered v. aloud. Some areas don't make a difference. Y :)
As for wh/w, I think instead of unvoiced/voiced, maybe these are whispered v. aloud. Some areas don't make a difference. Y :)
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opps! please ignore the 'neh' part in my attempt to pronounce, i was thinking of bonne journee...
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A note ot Mike C
In regards to the name Beau, i would like to point out the name does not mean beautiful, but handsome
Belle means beautiful, in the masculine form means handsome, technically, especially for a boy,
ty
~Silver
In regards to the name Beau, i would like to point out the name does not mean beautiful, but handsome
Belle means beautiful, in the masculine form means handsome, technically, especially for a boy,
ty
~Silver
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Oh, but that's no fun! Unecessary linguistic complications make the world go round! Besides, there's no *true* synonym in English--they all have different connotations (yeah, I'll just tell myself that...).
As for sounds . . . you could check out some Asian languages, as you didn't list any and it seems likely they would have some (Japanese "r" comes to mind, though I'm not sure if it's quite what you're looking for. It's pronounced as sort of a combination r/l that ends up sounding similar to--but not exactly like--"d." Heh heh. Well, to me it does. But I don't know if having that kind of r-sound would be a good idea in a language with two other ones already, especially if you're aiming for unconfusing and easy to speak.)
No poetry, no puns, no metaphors. . . . Hey, you could always learn a computer programming language! ^_^ (Actually, that might be an interesting thing to look at--computer languages. Give you ideas and whatnot. Or math/music.)
As for sounds . . . you could check out some Asian languages, as you didn't list any and it seems likely they would have some (Japanese "r" comes to mind, though I'm not sure if it's quite what you're looking for. It's pronounced as sort of a combination r/l that ends up sounding similar to--but not exactly like--"d." Heh heh. Well, to me it does. But I don't know if having that kind of r-sound would be a good idea in a language with two other ones already, especially if you're aiming for unconfusing and easy to speak.)
No poetry, no puns, no metaphors. . . . Hey, you could always learn a computer programming language! ^_^ (Actually, that might be an interesting thing to look at--computer languages. Give you ideas and whatnot. Or math/music.)
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Hi Silver,
interesting project!
You wrote: "R - the r in french that is made by vibrating the uvula at the back of the throat in a guttural nasal sound"
-- This kind of R is used in German, Danish and in the southern dialects of Sweden and Norway as well.
You wrote: "R - the rolled r sound made in spanish, and in german (not as rolled as harshly), made by vibrating the tip of the tongue against the roof of your mouth"
-- It's just in dialectal German where this kind of rolling R-sound is used. In standard German the R sounds like the French R.
You wrote: "Ch - the ch sound found in gaelic, such as the word 'loch', made similary as the french 'r', it is rather nasal and made at the back of the throat, sometimes written as kh to keep out the confusion of beind related to the english ch sound, like in church"
-- This Ch-sound is used in German and Russian as well.
You wrote: "A few questions, in German I know they have a character that looks something like a B, more like a beta symbol. This makes a double s sound. Is this sound accomplished by putting to s' together, or is it unique. If it is the later, can you try to explain how to make the sound."
-- The German ß is just the way how to write ss after a long vowel. When you have this word "Maße" (= measures) you know that the a is a long vowel. On the other hand in the word "Masse" (= mass, substance) the a is short vowel. The sound of ss and ß is exactly the same.
In every language you'll find a lot of sounds which are unnown in English. E.g. all the Swedish vowels sound very much different to the English ones. It's really hard to explain these sounds to someone who doesn't know the language. If you go to google and search for pronunciations there are some pages with sound examples you can listen to.
Regards, Satu
interesting project!
You wrote: "R - the r in french that is made by vibrating the uvula at the back of the throat in a guttural nasal sound"
-- This kind of R is used in German, Danish and in the southern dialects of Sweden and Norway as well.
You wrote: "R - the rolled r sound made in spanish, and in german (not as rolled as harshly), made by vibrating the tip of the tongue against the roof of your mouth"
-- It's just in dialectal German where this kind of rolling R-sound is used. In standard German the R sounds like the French R.
You wrote: "Ch - the ch sound found in gaelic, such as the word 'loch', made similary as the french 'r', it is rather nasal and made at the back of the throat, sometimes written as kh to keep out the confusion of beind related to the english ch sound, like in church"
-- This Ch-sound is used in German and Russian as well.
You wrote: "A few questions, in German I know they have a character that looks something like a B, more like a beta symbol. This makes a double s sound. Is this sound accomplished by putting to s' together, or is it unique. If it is the later, can you try to explain how to make the sound."
-- The German ß is just the way how to write ss after a long vowel. When you have this word "Maße" (= measures) you know that the a is a long vowel. On the other hand in the word "Masse" (= mass, substance) the a is short vowel. The sound of ss and ß is exactly the same.
In every language you'll find a lot of sounds which are unnown in English. E.g. all the Swedish vowels sound very much different to the English ones. It's really hard to explain these sounds to someone who doesn't know the language. If you go to google and search for pronunciations there are some pages with sound examples you can listen to.
Regards, Satu
1
I hope you can help me. I am taking an introductory Russian language course. I am having trouble figuring out exactly how to roll an r. The Russian 'p' is a trilled r sound and I can not figure out the technique.
Are there any exercises or hints that you could give me? Today my daughter showed me that she can do this, so I'll be quizzing her tonight and watching carefully where she places her tougue, but other than that I'm feeling helpless!
Thanks for your time.
Jim Peterson
Minnesota
Are there any exercises or hints that you could give me? Today my daughter showed me that she can do this, so I'll be quizzing her tonight and watching carefully where she places her tougue, but other than that I'm feeling helpless!
Thanks for your time.
Jim Peterson
Minnesota
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wow that really helps thanks! ill do ur suggestions
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I have recently designed the perfect alphabet and made a table of all the letters and how they are linked. i.e. S is unvoiced, Z is voiced; SH is unvoiced, ZH is voiced. S = sample, Z = zebra; SH = shine, zh = azure, leisure, etc. If you'll give me your email, I'll send my alphabet and table as attachments. Oh, I've figured out how to tell an English speaker how to pronounce the ch in loch (It's in Hebrew, too, the letters chet and chaf.). [Start to form a K but freeze before you make a sound. Then breathe out harshly.] Yahalome Tal
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wow im tired, i think i meant logographic or lithographic... -loser- to much math make silvy loopy...
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Boy am I relieved you didn't mean logarithmic languages...now there's a depressing thought! Your idea for a new language is interesting, but I can see it only being useful for instruction manuals. I agree with Lilith. The idiosyncrasies and nuances of our languages, which have evolved over thousands of years, give them authenticity.
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Too much math make Yahalome cry. (I did when I was littler!) >P
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