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HelpRe: So you don't like Saxon, Norman and Frank as well?
in reply to a message by Mar
Given what Native history in the United States looks like, I find it rather offensive to use the names of Native American tribes without any good reason. There is a huge difference between the Normans (who conquered England, for God's sake) and the Dakota.
Think of a marginalized group in the Netherlands, Mar. Would you find it even a tad disrespectful-sounding if someone with no connection, knowledge, or particular amount of respect for their culture used the name of their group as a name for their child simply because it sounded cool? Or would that be fine, for the dominant culture just to take up the name of their group?
Think about it.
Array (really rather incensed)
Think of a marginalized group in the Netherlands, Mar. Would you find it even a tad disrespectful-sounding if someone with no connection, knowledge, or particular amount of respect for their culture used the name of their group as a name for their child simply because it sounded cool? Or would that be fine, for the dominant culture just to take up the name of their group?
Think about it.
Array (really rather incensed)
This message was edited 1/20/2007, 8:03 PM
Archived Thread - replies disabled
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Replies
OK, I uderstand that. I wouldn't find it a problem though if someone from let's say South-Dakota and moved to let's say California and then would name his/her child after the state they were from, I don't have a problem, with that. If someone would name their child Dakota, just because it sounds cool, I'd advise them to think twice. (I remember a a discussion about the name Adonai and how a lot of people would be offeded to see that as a name, and if there are people who are equally offended by Dakota, I'd rather not see it used)
I do think that with time, this will change. Dakota will become less sensitive to use in my opinion, because I do believe time will make a wound hurt less. And maybe I just feel less strongly about these things, for one thing because I probably know less about this than you do and for another reason because Dutch people in general are more 'dowto earth' / 'get less worked up over things like this'(those are all not the exact terms I want to use, but I'm having trouble translating what I mean, for anyone who can read Dutch, I'm referring to nuchter).
As for how I would feel if something comparable would happen here. I wouldn't mind it to be honest, because I think it creates a bridge in some way. I think if someone is named the name of a certain group, the attention will turn towards the history that group, creating more understanding. But this is just how I would feel if this happened in the NL, I don't know how the people in group in question would feel.
Mar (who has no idea what incensed means, assuming your not referring to scents...)
I do think that with time, this will change. Dakota will become less sensitive to use in my opinion, because I do believe time will make a wound hurt less. And maybe I just feel less strongly about these things, for one thing because I probably know less about this than you do and for another reason because Dutch people in general are more 'dowto earth' / 'get less worked up over things like this'(those are all not the exact terms I want to use, but I'm having trouble translating what I mean, for anyone who can read Dutch, I'm referring to nuchter).
As for how I would feel if something comparable would happen here. I wouldn't mind it to be honest, because I think it creates a bridge in some way. I think if someone is named the name of a certain group, the attention will turn towards the history that group, creating more understanding. But this is just how I would feel if this happened in the NL, I don't know how the people in group in question would feel.
Mar (who has no idea what incensed means, assuming your not referring to scents...)
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Incensed
Has nothing to do with scents, LOL (not laughing at you per se, but it was amusing).
It basically means very annoyed.
Has nothing to do with scents, LOL (not laughing at you per se, but it was amusing).
It basically means very annoyed.
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I agree whole heartedly!
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question [m]
what if someone has no connection to Native Americans but has knowledge, or particular amount of respect for their culture to use a name from a certain tribe or a tribal name.
I have a few friends who are part, or full native american, and they have no problem with people using their names [I asked because I like certain names [my friends are: Cherokee, Hopi, Cheyenne, and a few others]. As long as they have a knowledge, and respect for them in general.
Then again it can go for any culture if you *really* think about it. People use names from different cultures all the time without even thinking that it could be offensive or disrespectful to that culture. When it comes to Native American names the names are off limits to most (I could understand a bit of it though, in not using the names) but why is not not disrespectful in other situations?
I guess it depends on the actual person though. To each their own.
what if someone has no connection to Native Americans but has knowledge, or particular amount of respect for their culture to use a name from a certain tribe or a tribal name.
I have a few friends who are part, or full native american, and they have no problem with people using their names [I asked because I like certain names [my friends are: Cherokee, Hopi, Cheyenne, and a few others]. As long as they have a knowledge, and respect for them in general.
Then again it can go for any culture if you *really* think about it. People use names from different cultures all the time without even thinking that it could be offensive or disrespectful to that culture. When it comes to Native American names the names are off limits to most (I could understand a bit of it though, in not using the names) but why is not not disrespectful in other situations?
I guess it depends on the actual person though. To each their own.
This message was edited 1/20/2007, 8:24 PM
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differences...(m)
There are differences between names more commonly associated with a certain country or region and names that are labels for groups of people. I think that is why the question comes up, otherwise it would be a different matter.
There are differences between names more commonly associated with a certain country or region and names that are labels for groups of people. I think that is why the question comes up, otherwise it would be a different matter.
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what if someone has no connection to Native Americans but has knowledge, or particular amount of respect for their culture to use a name from a certain tribe or a tribal name.
If that person has such a great connection to Native Americans in general, why would they use Dakota? Dakota's a name for the Santee Sioux. It's the name for a language. Do you realize that most people who identify as a part of the group known as the Dakota wouldn't actually refer to themselves as Dakota?
I have a hard time believing someone has such a deep and significant bond to Native peoples and would choose a generic, tryndee designation rather than a Native name with meaning, heritage, and history of use. "I use Dakota because I'm so into Native American heritage!" strikes me as a lame way of saying "I like a tryndee name but need an excuse to make myself feel better."
Array
If that person has such a great connection to Native Americans in general, why would they use Dakota? Dakota's a name for the Santee Sioux. It's the name for a language. Do you realize that most people who identify as a part of the group known as the Dakota wouldn't actually refer to themselves as Dakota?
I have a hard time believing someone has such a deep and significant bond to Native peoples and would choose a generic, tryndee designation rather than a Native name with meaning, heritage, and history of use. "I use Dakota because I'm so into Native American heritage!" strikes me as a lame way of saying "I like a tryndee name but need an excuse to make myself feel better."
Array
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...So, uh. What's your point?
Array
ETA: A better explanation of my reaction to your response:
This threadlet of sorts is a discussion on the use of Dakota as a name and whether it's disrespectful and ignorant or not. It is not a discussion of what Sabrina Fair thinks of the name Dakota, or whether Sabrina Fair would use it. Quite frankly, I don't care. Do you have any relevant arguments left?
Array
ETA: A better explanation of my reaction to your response:
This threadlet of sorts is a discussion on the use of Dakota as a name and whether it's disrespectful and ignorant or not. It is not a discussion of what Sabrina Fair thinks of the name Dakota, or whether Sabrina Fair would use it. Quite frankly, I don't care. Do you have any relevant arguments left?
This message was edited 1/20/2007, 8:37 PM
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it answers your question in this post
my point is, as long as someone has respect for the people, and culture (regardless of what culture it is) then it's fine to use it.
ETA: I don't care that you don't care what I think, however why should people care what other people name their kids, it's their children not anyone elses. Even if it's considered 'ignorant, and rude' to someone or a Native American, it doesn't mean it's offensive to all Native Americans, or even other people. That's just my opinion though. If people dislike Dakota, that's their opinion everyone had dislikes, and likes or is offended by certain names, and some others are fine.
my point is, as long as someone has respect for the people, and culture (regardless of what culture it is) then it's fine to use it.
ETA: I don't care that you don't care what I think, however why should people care what other people name their kids, it's their children not anyone elses. Even if it's considered 'ignorant, and rude' to someone or a Native American, it doesn't mean it's offensive to all Native Americans, or even other people. That's just my opinion though. If people dislike Dakota, that's their opinion everyone had dislikes, and likes or is offended by certain names, and some others are fine.
This message was edited 1/20/2007, 11:00 PM
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I agree that anyone can use a name from another culture, but most people don't use the name of the other culture.
I would rather see Pocahontas used than Cherokee.
I would rather see Pocahontas used than Cherokee.
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Would be fine imo.
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To me . . .
I have tried not to get involved in the political / ideological side of this debate because I just don't find Dakota an appealing name in and of itself, the politics notwithstanding, but I am inclined to agree with Array and the others who have said it is disrespectful. It is a name that tryndee Yuppie types have latched onto to be "exotic" or "unique" without thinking about it. It is slightly comprable to a German naming their child Pollack. That's to the extreme, and I realize that currect Germans do not share the oppression that their ancestors adopted during that time, but I think the analogy makes its point.
I have tried not to get involved in the political / ideological side of this debate because I just don't find Dakota an appealing name in and of itself, the politics notwithstanding, but I am inclined to agree with Array and the others who have said it is disrespectful. It is a name that tryndee Yuppie types have latched onto to be "exotic" or "unique" without thinking about it. It is slightly comprable to a German naming their child Pollack. That's to the extreme, and I realize that currect Germans do not share the oppression that their ancestors adopted during that time, but I think the analogy makes its point.
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