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HelpRe: Saffron Domini
in reply to a message by Manipura
So like a hippie/blingy name. I could see that.
I just don't like the sound of it, so I like picking on the 'expensive' thing ...
Trying to explain ... not that you care ... The names that irritate me a lot are often names that I *could* like, for the impressions they give me - except something about the sound of them bothers me. Ruby and Sage are kinda in that category, too, but they're not as irritating as Saffron is, to me. I think Ruby and Sage are a little tacky sounding too - but, tacky isn't meant as a put-down, per se. I really like a lot of names I would say are tacky, that could be in the same category. It's like an 'aesthetic' to me. I like using tacky to describe names I don't like, because when a name irritates me, I'm imagining that someone else really thinks they sound rich or rare. I want to say, 'nuh uh, they don't!' But, that's not really why I don't like them. I think I say it because I'm hoping to get someone who likes a name that irritates me, to reconsider. Kinda evil of me, I guess.
- mirfak
I just don't like the sound of it, so I like picking on the 'expensive' thing ...
Trying to explain ... not that you care ... The names that irritate me a lot are often names that I *could* like, for the impressions they give me - except something about the sound of them bothers me. Ruby and Sage are kinda in that category, too, but they're not as irritating as Saffron is, to me. I think Ruby and Sage are a little tacky sounding too - but, tacky isn't meant as a put-down, per se. I really like a lot of names I would say are tacky, that could be in the same category. It's like an 'aesthetic' to me. I like using tacky to describe names I don't like, because when a name irritates me, I'm imagining that someone else really thinks they sound rich or rare. I want to say, 'nuh uh, they don't!' But, that's not really why I don't like them. I think I say it because I'm hoping to get someone who likes a name that irritates me, to reconsider. Kinda evil of me, I guess.
- mirfak
This message was edited 9/18/2022, 8:58 PM
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Sure, I was thinking (about names used because they're perceived as expensive) kind of like if Versace was used as a name it'd sound like it was meant to be stylish/exotic to me. But Treasure wouldn't, because it's kind of understand to be like Sunshine(?), and Saffron seems in that category to me especially with the middle name. Treasure and Versace could both be described as tacky (I'd say kitschy aesthetically), though. And I guess Saffron could seem like it's trying too hard to be respectably common like Rosemary, instead of in-your-face precious like Treasure.
This message was edited 9/19/2022, 9:23 AM
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Hm, that is interesting. You sort things differently than I do. I don't see Treasure and Sunshine as being like Saffron. Treasure as a name is a metaphor - it doesn't strictly mean material wealth. So is Sunshine a metaphor as a name. Saffron is not traditionally a metaphor for anything, it's a commodity, and its symbolism is worldly, it's about rare sensuous pleasures. It's more like Versace than Treasure, to me. If I found out that Saffron was a traditional spiritual symbol of some kind, it'd change the way it seemed to me. But I doubt it is, to any modern person using it, anyway. I guess the reason Rosemary isn't like Ruby to me is because it's Rose (abstract traditional symbolism) plus Mary ... Violet is also abstract traditional symbolism, Sage isn't.
Tacky and kitschy are both still the wrong word somehow ... I'm not evaluating them, like good or bad, it doesn't even determine whether I like them. I'm just sensitive to the different kinds of value I think they represent. It's not about traditional-ness either. Maybe it's more banal vs sublime? Like, Myron is pretty literal and banal - I could totally put it with Saffron even though it is 'traditional,' and does not seem silly, it's roughly the same level of allusion that you're saying Saffron is. Trinity seems kind of silly to me, though, despite being a pretty esoteric idea.
Anyway I'm more likely to say that Saffron is tacky, than Myron, and cite its banality, because I don't like Saffron and I do like Myron. No reason for that, that I can find, it's just personal preference.
Tacky and kitschy are both still the wrong word somehow ... I'm not evaluating them, like good or bad, it doesn't even determine whether I like them. I'm just sensitive to the different kinds of value I think they represent. It's not about traditional-ness either. Maybe it's more banal vs sublime? Like, Myron is pretty literal and banal - I could totally put it with Saffron even though it is 'traditional,' and does not seem silly, it's roughly the same level of allusion that you're saying Saffron is. Trinity seems kind of silly to me, though, despite being a pretty esoteric idea.
Anyway I'm more likely to say that Saffron is tacky, than Myron, and cite its banality, because I don't like Saffron and I do like Myron. No reason for that, that I can find, it's just personal preference.
This message was edited 9/19/2022, 11:01 AM
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I understand you don't mean good or bad. I didn't mean kitschy is bad either. Saffron doesn't seem less silly to me than Trinity, though; honestly neither does Myron but for a different reason...but then, I don't really think of Trinity as loftier than Clover...I guess I see what you mean about sublime/esoteric (I interpret as more detached/intangible? which probably sounds wrong but more like Joy than Rose? Unless Rose is sublime, then I'm confused. Unless it's all personal preference - I don't understand why Sage wouldn't have abstract traditional symbolism either.)
But yeah, I think Saffron can be a metaphor?
Apart from being culturally associated with religious celebrations (like sabbath or Easter; I guess primarily in Europe or in older traditions, because I don't have those associations personally), Saffron does get mentioned in the Song of Songs part of the bible, so I feel like it's reasonable to say it can be a spiritual metaphor for beauty. Of course the Song of Songs is about sensuous pleasure and also has descriptions like Your hair is like a flock of goats...your teeth are like a flock of sheep just shorn, coming up from the washing, so its beauty standards aren't exactly modern (*and* mustard is in the bible too), but oh well, it's still a mystical garden metaphor. I'd assume it was motivated by some association like that with a middle name like Domini.
Though I feel like the stronger spiritual association is with the color/dye-
(this is from the Saffron color wiki page)
Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism associate saffron with the pious renunciation of material life.
Buddhist monks in the Theravada tradition typically wear saffron robes (although occasionally maroon — the color normally worn by Vajrayana Buddhist monks — is worn). The tone of saffron typically worn by Theravada Buddhist monks is the lighter tone of saffron shown above.
Saffron holds symbolic meaning in Sikhism, representing spirit and sacrifice. Originally a shade of yellow called basanti, the field of the modern Nishan Sahib is saffron. Turbans worn by Sikhs most often are blue or white, but basanti colour is common.
But yeah, I think Saffron can be a metaphor?
Apart from being culturally associated with religious celebrations (like sabbath or Easter; I guess primarily in Europe or in older traditions, because I don't have those associations personally), Saffron does get mentioned in the Song of Songs part of the bible, so I feel like it's reasonable to say it can be a spiritual metaphor for beauty. Of course the Song of Songs is about sensuous pleasure and also has descriptions like Your hair is like a flock of goats...your teeth are like a flock of sheep just shorn, coming up from the washing, so its beauty standards aren't exactly modern (*and* mustard is in the bible too), but oh well, it's still a mystical garden metaphor. I'd assume it was motivated by some association like that with a middle name like Domini.
Though I feel like the stronger spiritual association is with the color/dye-
(this is from the Saffron color wiki page)
Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism associate saffron with the pious renunciation of material life.
Buddhist monks in the Theravada tradition typically wear saffron robes (although occasionally maroon — the color normally worn by Vajrayana Buddhist monks — is worn). The tone of saffron typically worn by Theravada Buddhist monks is the lighter tone of saffron shown above.
Saffron holds symbolic meaning in Sikhism, representing spirit and sacrifice. Originally a shade of yellow called basanti, the field of the modern Nishan Sahib is saffron. Turbans worn by Sikhs most often are blue or white, but basanti colour is common.
This message was edited 9/19/2022, 4:10 PM
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I don't have the impression that sage has a layered symbolism the way rose does. I'm splitting hairs, but that's how I would explain my feeling that Rose is more "serious" than Sage. Rose has esoteric & religious symbolism when stylized, political symbolism, and folk symbolism... it's almost not even an object-name, the image is so freighted. Detached/intangible is a good way to say it too, I guess, but also tradition gives it some gravity, for me ... Sage wasn't used as a name hardly at all until just recently, while Rose has been a name for as long as anyone can remember. Lily seems heavier than Sage to me. And Sage more than Saffron.
My impressions are limited by my cultural exposure to different things, obviously! Which doesn't amount to a preference, it's just a personal limitation on how I perceive things. I like some names that are folk-symbolic, or modern / non-traditional / non-Christian symbols, and a lot of names that are totally banal too. Crystal, Ember, Sienna, Rowan, etc
I appreciate the info you're offering about Saffron. I guess some people who like it superficially, might nerd out and look up all the symbolism, and I should appreciate that. But I wouldn't be inclined to look it up myself, just because I don't like it as a name. If I did like it a lot, I think I'd have tried to find out all about it.
I'm not really with you on assuming that it's meant to refer to the Bible because her middle is Domini. But it can't be ruled out, so, fair point!
My impressions are limited by my cultural exposure to different things, obviously! Which doesn't amount to a preference, it's just a personal limitation on how I perceive things. I like some names that are folk-symbolic, or modern / non-traditional / non-Christian symbols, and a lot of names that are totally banal too. Crystal, Ember, Sienna, Rowan, etc
I appreciate the info you're offering about Saffron. I guess some people who like it superficially, might nerd out and look up all the symbolism, and I should appreciate that. But I wouldn't be inclined to look it up myself, just because I don't like it as a name. If I did like it a lot, I think I'd have tried to find out all about it.
I'm not really with you on assuming that it's meant to refer to the Bible because her middle is Domini. But it can't be ruled out, so, fair point!
This message was edited 9/19/2022, 4:29 PM
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To me that is popular/conventional vs rare, rather than traditional/old/abstract or not...though I'd think if anything, the more a name is used, the more concrete it'd seem...but splitting hairs, and limited by cultural exposure, ok.
Anyway, I'm not meaning to argue with your impressions or personal preferences. Most names I would think of as kitschy seem like they could easily have sentimental value in some way that's commonly relatable/symbolic, though - like I didn't mean I'd assume a biblical connection, just similar cultural type sentimental associations (even though I don't personally have them), which pretty much most ancient fragrant plants have. Like I'd agree it's probably related to expense but doubt parents would name their kid Pricetag or something unless it symbolized something other than superficial expense to them, even if they liked the sound and especially next to a heavily religious middle name, so it'd make most sense to me if it did have spiritual/folk meaning, that's all (it doesn't to you, and you don't like it; ok, me neither really).
Anyway, I'm not meaning to argue with your impressions or personal preferences. Most names I would think of as kitschy seem like they could easily have sentimental value in some way that's commonly relatable/symbolic, though - like I didn't mean I'd assume a biblical connection, just similar cultural type sentimental associations (even though I don't personally have them), which pretty much most ancient fragrant plants have. Like I'd agree it's probably related to expense but doubt parents would name their kid Pricetag or something unless it symbolized something other than superficial expense to them, even if they liked the sound and especially next to a heavily religious middle name, so it'd make most sense to me if it did have spiritual/folk meaning, that's all (it doesn't to you, and you don't like it; ok, me neither really).
This message was edited 9/20/2022, 7:51 AM
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