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HelpRe: Hera (edited)
in reply to a message by mirfak
I was never in conflict with your point if it's exclusively (it doesn't need to be meaningfully symbolic in order to be used in modern times as a name).
I've been thinking, mainly, that people probably aren't thinking of Hera, if they're thinking of her outside the context of ancient religion.
And that's fine. I like the name independent of symbolism myself. But if we are talking about the Greek goddess, we're talking about ancient religion, right?
Despite us not really being able to "get" how anyone believed in gods like this
I get it. People can get it. (I think that's mostly what we're disagreeing about? My claim that I understand why people wanted to venerate Hera.)
I could call religion "our own perceptions of our own perceptions" I guess, though those aren't words I'd use for it, and I assume that's not what you meant, but really I have no I idea, because to me if we're talking about a goddess intentionally used as a namesake, then...it's reasonable to assume appeal, as I do.
You speak as if with authority, when you judge what cultural values and contexts are positive or negative
Not really. I speak for myself, but my view of myths isn't one-dimensional, and my view of the context isn't only based on myth. I am being lazy by lumping "Ancient Greeks" and stuff like that, sorry. I know for certain there were places and times in Greece that I wouldn't have wanted to live in, and I assume but don't know that a lot of modern people wouldn't either. I can also imagine circumstances in which I would have preferred living in Ancient Greece over how I live now. I do have a particular view of Hera's limits, but it's mostly based on my understanding that Hera is meant to be worshipped and implications that has for who she is. I didn't mean to seem reductive (or like I was casting blame on Greeks as a whole somehow by being judgmental of a myth from one angle - struggle/deceit/ambiguity/sex/creation/unity), but this is a complex subject, and I also didn't intend to overexplain.
and having to characterize myths as "religion" or "propaganda" (terms with meanings specific to our culture).
Honestly, I only have a vague idea what these things (or positive, negative, shame, goddess, power, sexist, humble, etc) mean to you, our understandings of propaganda at least do not exactly align, despite me not disagreeing with your very well-worded definition. I cannot be completely sure how they'd translate to Ancient Greeks either; I can only guess. Differences in word-concepts can be profound; I expect that...wouldn't have chosen the word "propaganda" to convey my thought, if I expected an ancient Greek audience. Understanding has limits, and so does speaking English in 2021, but I'm not placing a lot of importance on the word itself or thinking of it as intrinsically negative; it's an approximation of what I wanted to convey. I'm not seeing why that means, necessarily, we humans are utterly incapable of understanding each other across time gaps.
I don't know what concept you're referring to, when you cite power of marriage and imply it's something our culture might ever depict
I wasn't thinking of anything real specific (what makes marriage powerful in our culture and time? what would experience of that power be like? would it still mesh with Matriach? would it even be female? generally), more trying to reiterate that an American-power-of-marriage, if there was one, would not be Hera. Adding to Hera's stories at this point (as if she needs to be redeemed, which was mentioned at some point in the thread) would irk me. Plus, if American-power-of-marriage were conflated with Hera in a story, the story'd automatically be less culturally meaningful for American people...maybe I'm overreacting to the redemption idea because I'm sick of Hollywood movies about superheroes and nonreligious pop culture paganism. I think there was a tradition in which she (in one aspect) was divorced/separated/widowed, so it wouldn't be an entire fabrication in that way (but then I'd feel like framing getting rid of Zeus as *good* was annoying, too, ugh).
Pelops differentiated "holders of cultural shapes" from what they actually "represent" (because who can say what that is?), and I feel like I agree with that but wasn't really with your seeming agreement to it (because of the "no way" statement).
I was trying to say, Hera (that name) is a cultural shape...an understanding of a specific power in a specific network of powers.
Hera is an amalgam of experience; of course she is culturally distorted. She's relatable but can only be understood in an experiential (religious, ritualistic) way.
Once I start talking in abstract terms (like Goddess/Power of Marriage), and relate that to my own cultural context (like by suggesting her stories should change, because no one I know would complain), then that's not symbolic of Hera (the Greek goddess) even though marriage is her domain; that's a concept independent of her. But she is also a symbol in addition to an experience, just not one automatically identifiable using only the interpretation of relationships popular in my culture. I can intuit and make judgements without losing sight of that.
How is it positive for you, if you reject Hera's entire context as patriarchal and rapey. Isn't that reinventing it and claiming it's connected to Hera because you yourself make an analogy?
I never actually did that (reject)? Greek culture was patriarchal for a very long time, in a way that restricted both women and men in various ways that would discomfit me, and patriarchy is not something I desire to idealize, sure. I don't hate Zeus. I was indelicate about why I think a series of myths functioned (was responding to "Zeus was absolutely atrocious to her" - my comment was meant like: she had limited power, by design (as did the other gods/goddesses); her function/role only makes sense in context of her power, and the stories don't make sense without considering her function. Her being "raped" *however-Greeks-who-treat-that-myth-as-authoritative-would-interpret* by my best guess wouldn't negate why she is powerful even if she was depicted as humiliated/limited/ineffective/restrained/faithful/desirable/whatever: it reveals what her power is (perhaps not in obvious ways to modern people) somehow and same for Zeus, because that's how Greek religious stories work imv, no matter what judgments I make about Greek ideas of consent or rationality. I have a lot of respect for Hera's cultural shape; I don't see why I wouldn't if I lived in Ancient Greece either, even though perspectives on her myths weren't uniform even in Ancient Greece? I can have that respect, and I can understand the experience of Hera in a retrospective, limited human way, without desiring to recreate in my exterior world, on a grand-scale, what led to it.
None of that's relevant to people using the name Hera in a way that'd be incongruent with my understanding and speculation on ancient religion, of course.
I've been thinking, mainly, that people probably aren't thinking of Hera, if they're thinking of her outside the context of ancient religion.
And that's fine. I like the name independent of symbolism myself. But if we are talking about the Greek goddess, we're talking about ancient religion, right?
Despite us not really being able to "get" how anyone believed in gods like this
I get it. People can get it. (I think that's mostly what we're disagreeing about? My claim that I understand why people wanted to venerate Hera.)
I could call religion "our own perceptions of our own perceptions" I guess, though those aren't words I'd use for it, and I assume that's not what you meant, but really I have no I idea, because to me if we're talking about a goddess intentionally used as a namesake, then...it's reasonable to assume appeal, as I do.
You speak as if with authority, when you judge what cultural values and contexts are positive or negative
Not really. I speak for myself, but my view of myths isn't one-dimensional, and my view of the context isn't only based on myth. I am being lazy by lumping "Ancient Greeks" and stuff like that, sorry. I know for certain there were places and times in Greece that I wouldn't have wanted to live in, and I assume but don't know that a lot of modern people wouldn't either. I can also imagine circumstances in which I would have preferred living in Ancient Greece over how I live now. I do have a particular view of Hera's limits, but it's mostly based on my understanding that Hera is meant to be worshipped and implications that has for who she is. I didn't mean to seem reductive (or like I was casting blame on Greeks as a whole somehow by being judgmental of a myth from one angle - struggle/deceit/ambiguity/sex/creation/unity), but this is a complex subject, and I also didn't intend to overexplain.
and having to characterize myths as "religion" or "propaganda" (terms with meanings specific to our culture).
Honestly, I only have a vague idea what these things (or positive, negative, shame, goddess, power, sexist, humble, etc) mean to you, our understandings of propaganda at least do not exactly align, despite me not disagreeing with your very well-worded definition. I cannot be completely sure how they'd translate to Ancient Greeks either; I can only guess. Differences in word-concepts can be profound; I expect that...wouldn't have chosen the word "propaganda" to convey my thought, if I expected an ancient Greek audience. Understanding has limits, and so does speaking English in 2021, but I'm not placing a lot of importance on the word itself or thinking of it as intrinsically negative; it's an approximation of what I wanted to convey. I'm not seeing why that means, necessarily, we humans are utterly incapable of understanding each other across time gaps.
I don't know what concept you're referring to, when you cite power of marriage and imply it's something our culture might ever depict
I wasn't thinking of anything real specific (what makes marriage powerful in our culture and time? what would experience of that power be like? would it still mesh with Matriach? would it even be female? generally), more trying to reiterate that an American-power-of-marriage, if there was one, would not be Hera. Adding to Hera's stories at this point (as if she needs to be redeemed, which was mentioned at some point in the thread) would irk me. Plus, if American-power-of-marriage were conflated with Hera in a story, the story'd automatically be less culturally meaningful for American people...maybe I'm overreacting to the redemption idea because I'm sick of Hollywood movies about superheroes and nonreligious pop culture paganism. I think there was a tradition in which she (in one aspect) was divorced/separated/widowed, so it wouldn't be an entire fabrication in that way (but then I'd feel like framing getting rid of Zeus as *good* was annoying, too, ugh).
Pelops differentiated "holders of cultural shapes" from what they actually "represent" (because who can say what that is?), and I feel like I agree with that but wasn't really with your seeming agreement to it (because of the "no way" statement).
I was trying to say, Hera (that name) is a cultural shape...an understanding of a specific power in a specific network of powers.
Hera is an amalgam of experience; of course she is culturally distorted. She's relatable but can only be understood in an experiential (religious, ritualistic) way.
Once I start talking in abstract terms (like Goddess/Power of Marriage), and relate that to my own cultural context (like by suggesting her stories should change, because no one I know would complain), then that's not symbolic of Hera (the Greek goddess) even though marriage is her domain; that's a concept independent of her. But she is also a symbol in addition to an experience, just not one automatically identifiable using only the interpretation of relationships popular in my culture. I can intuit and make judgements without losing sight of that.
How is it positive for you, if you reject Hera's entire context as patriarchal and rapey. Isn't that reinventing it and claiming it's connected to Hera because you yourself make an analogy?
I never actually did that (reject)? Greek culture was patriarchal for a very long time, in a way that restricted both women and men in various ways that would discomfit me, and patriarchy is not something I desire to idealize, sure. I don't hate Zeus. I was indelicate about why I think a series of myths functioned (was responding to "Zeus was absolutely atrocious to her" - my comment was meant like: she had limited power, by design (as did the other gods/goddesses); her function/role only makes sense in context of her power, and the stories don't make sense without considering her function. Her being "raped" *however-Greeks-who-treat-that-myth-as-authoritative-would-interpret* by my best guess wouldn't negate why she is powerful even if she was depicted as humiliated/limited/ineffective/restrained/faithful/desirable/whatever: it reveals what her power is (perhaps not in obvious ways to modern people) somehow and same for Zeus, because that's how Greek religious stories work imv, no matter what judgments I make about Greek ideas of consent or rationality. I have a lot of respect for Hera's cultural shape; I don't see why I wouldn't if I lived in Ancient Greece either, even though perspectives on her myths weren't uniform even in Ancient Greece? I can have that respect, and I can understand the experience of Hera in a retrospective, limited human way, without desiring to recreate in my exterior world, on a grand-scale, what led to it.
None of that's relevant to people using the name Hera in a way that'd be incongruent with my understanding and speculation on ancient religion, of course.
This message was edited 4/29/2021, 12:50 PM
Archived Thread - replies disabled
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Replies
I've been thinking, mainly, that people probably aren't thinking of Hera, if they're thinking of her outside the context of ancient religion.
And that's fine. I like the name independent of symbolism myself. But if we are talking about the Greek goddess, we're talking about ancient religion, right?
Basically yeah ... I thought we're talking about how the name Hera has a meaning, for us, that is related to the ancient religion. And how we suppose our meanings are related to that.
"Despite us not really being able to "get" how anyone believed in gods like this"
I get it. People can get it. (I think that's mostly what we're disagreeing about? My claim that I understand why people wanted to venerate Hera.)
Yeah people can get it ... but, do they? Do you?
The way I get it, is probably a little like the way you get it. It seems that way from what you say, I guess.
I think what Pelops says is pretty important. I think the myths aren't allegories or metaphors, and they certainly weren't supposed to be literal... myths are analogical, they not prescribing behavior or depicting ideals - on the contrary. One reason I think they're considered religious is just because what they express isn't objective/literal, and their complete meaning only arises in the mind of a person who reads them. It's not IN the text. Another reason is, they represent values as divine (suggesting they are universal, natural, or absolute values).
I don't think the AG myths were like religious propaganda that conditioned people to accept or conform with cultural norms. I think the cultural norms are in the myths because part of the point of the myths is not only to show how norms (and all their problems and tragedies) come to be, but also to give insight into why they are not so easily "fixed" or made better. They're not ideological / propagandistic, they don't preach or indoctrinate or moralize. They described things in a way that could *lead* to insight and judgment.
Anyway I don't really think we disagree ...
And that's fine. I like the name independent of symbolism myself. But if we are talking about the Greek goddess, we're talking about ancient religion, right?
Basically yeah ... I thought we're talking about how the name Hera has a meaning, for us, that is related to the ancient religion. And how we suppose our meanings are related to that.
"Despite us not really being able to "get" how anyone believed in gods like this"
I get it. People can get it. (I think that's mostly what we're disagreeing about? My claim that I understand why people wanted to venerate Hera.)
Yeah people can get it ... but, do they? Do you?
The way I get it, is probably a little like the way you get it. It seems that way from what you say, I guess.
I think what Pelops says is pretty important. I think the myths aren't allegories or metaphors, and they certainly weren't supposed to be literal... myths are analogical, they not prescribing behavior or depicting ideals - on the contrary. One reason I think they're considered religious is just because what they express isn't objective/literal, and their complete meaning only arises in the mind of a person who reads them. It's not IN the text. Another reason is, they represent values as divine (suggesting they are universal, natural, or absolute values).
I don't think the AG myths were like religious propaganda that conditioned people to accept or conform with cultural norms. I think the cultural norms are in the myths because part of the point of the myths is not only to show how norms (and all their problems and tragedies) come to be, but also to give insight into why they are not so easily "fixed" or made better. They're not ideological / propagandistic, they don't preach or indoctrinate or moralize. They described things in a way that could *lead* to insight and judgment.
Anyway I don't really think we disagree ...
This message was edited 4/29/2021, 9:11 PM
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I think you must agree that it's shallow to presume that the character-Hera in myths, who is sometimes weak and petty, is supposed to represent an ideal worthy of the queen of the gods.
Not quite...Hera is queen of the gods (of course she is worthy - this wouldn't need to be spelled out for religious Greeks; they'd already know). Gods and goddess conflict in myths because they individually are not omnipotent in all arenas. Their power/nature is revealed in contrast. Zeus's weakness can be Hera's strength, and vice versa.
This is why I don't like when they're taken out of context...or reduced to universals/archetypes, even if they are those, too...the ways those archetypes relate as depicted for Greeks isn't necessarily universal; if we obscure their weakness, we obscure their nature. And if we claim they're not ideals, we obscure their nature. IMV.
I also think it's shallow to presume the AGs were uncritical about rape or adultery just because the myths have gods doing those things.
Zeus can't truly be refused, is what I said. It's not necessarily negative in context, from a religious perspective (he's like weather, fate, is ultimate protector, father, etc), which is relationship based. These things give people insight about nature and ability to self-reflect, but also involve belief in power (which is going to influence thinking and cultural norms). I wouldn't say AGs were uncritical of rape, but they had vastly different understanding of it. Pretending as if they didn't would be shallow imv.
The myths IMO are supposed to let us wonder how much meanness and humiliation and destruction would be avoided IF ONLY Zeus wasn't the way he is ... if only WE weren't like Zeus
I don't really disagree, but I think it's more aimed at revealing nature/character/desire in general.
Mortals aren't meant to think they can act like gods, yeah, but they are meant to honor gods and sacrifice for them? Myths revolve around divine desires partly for that purpose...IMV their desires were respected if their natures were respected. But a mortal can't be expected to get what they want if even a god can't. And the gods' desires are limited, too, because they're not human. Zeus might not desire to be faithful/restrained (it's not his nature - what does it matter if a storm isn't restrained?), but maybe a mortal man does, and maybe that's Hera at work or a result of sacrifice dedicated to Hera.
Not quite...Hera is queen of the gods (of course she is worthy - this wouldn't need to be spelled out for religious Greeks; they'd already know). Gods and goddess conflict in myths because they individually are not omnipotent in all arenas. Their power/nature is revealed in contrast. Zeus's weakness can be Hera's strength, and vice versa.
This is why I don't like when they're taken out of context...or reduced to universals/archetypes, even if they are those, too...the ways those archetypes relate as depicted for Greeks isn't necessarily universal; if we obscure their weakness, we obscure their nature. And if we claim they're not ideals, we obscure their nature. IMV.
I also think it's shallow to presume the AGs were uncritical about rape or adultery just because the myths have gods doing those things.
Zeus can't truly be refused, is what I said. It's not necessarily negative in context, from a religious perspective (he's like weather, fate, is ultimate protector, father, etc), which is relationship based. These things give people insight about nature and ability to self-reflect, but also involve belief in power (which is going to influence thinking and cultural norms). I wouldn't say AGs were uncritical of rape, but they had vastly different understanding of it. Pretending as if they didn't would be shallow imv.
The myths IMO are supposed to let us wonder how much meanness and humiliation and destruction would be avoided IF ONLY Zeus wasn't the way he is ... if only WE weren't like Zeus
I don't really disagree, but I think it's more aimed at revealing nature/character/desire in general.
Mortals aren't meant to think they can act like gods, yeah, but they are meant to honor gods and sacrifice for them? Myths revolve around divine desires partly for that purpose...IMV their desires were respected if their natures were respected. But a mortal can't be expected to get what they want if even a god can't. And the gods' desires are limited, too, because they're not human. Zeus might not desire to be faithful/restrained (it's not his nature - what does it matter if a storm isn't restrained?), but maybe a mortal man does, and maybe that's Hera at work or a result of sacrifice dedicated to Hera.
This message was edited 4/30/2021, 2:56 PM
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