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HelpMiddle name question about appropriation
So I had the name Winona down for quite a while, but not for an immediate first name pick. I've only just re-found-out (because I had forgotten) that it is a Native American name. I'm used to it being a place-name, Winona Ryder, and the name of one of the gym leaders in the 3rd gen Pokemon games.
Which brings me to ask; would it be appropriate for a British white person to use Winona as a middle name? At all? IF so, under what conditions?
Branching off from that, how about a Japanese name like Sakura?
I admit, I know far more about Japan and Japanese culture (and the Japanese language) than Native American literally-everything aside from basic history I've had to research myself because it's not touched upon in our schools
Technically neither is Japan, but I've gone further out of my way to educate myself on Japanese culture and language because I would like to someday visit and my worst fear from that is being the idiot foreigner who never bothers to learn the language / culture.
Does anybody have any thoughts on this, and does your opinion change if it's being used as a middle, rather than a first name?
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"one particular boogie will move mirror massaging with stirring crepe mixture, positioning loaves while in the furnace then toting items in containers" ~ best Russian daing sites (guest, 198.144.149.xxx) (2020)
Which brings me to ask; would it be appropriate for a British white person to use Winona as a middle name? At all? IF so, under what conditions?
Branching off from that, how about a Japanese name like Sakura?
I admit, I know far more about Japan and Japanese culture (and the Japanese language) than Native American literally-everything aside from basic history I've had to research myself because it's not touched upon in our schools
Technically neither is Japan, but I've gone further out of my way to educate myself on Japanese culture and language because I would like to someday visit and my worst fear from that is being the idiot foreigner who never bothers to learn the language / culture.
Does anybody have any thoughts on this, and does your opinion change if it's being used as a middle, rather than a first name?
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"one particular boogie will move mirror massaging with stirring crepe mixture, positioning loaves while in the furnace then toting items in containers" ~ best Russian daing sites (guest, 198.144.149.xxx) (2020)
This message was edited 11/1/2020, 12:51 PM
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Replies
The big issue I take with using foreign names is that there is almost zero percent chance it is actually that name. There is almost no chance that the name in question miraculously uses only sounds that exist in your native language and that the accent is right too.
To me a foreign name I like is Kahina. Or rather I love it the way it looks to me. If I named my daughter Kahina it wouldn't be a Berber name meaning fortuneteller it'd be a nice sounding invented name, inspired by the Berber one but at this point pretty far removed.
The only reasons to give your kid the exact actual name from culture X and say stuff like "this is an X name meaning y" are: 1) you're part of that culture and you know what you're doing, 2) you're raising your kid within culture X.
The special third reason is when that culture made a concentrated effort to have an impact on your own culture. So, yeah, it is 100% okay for Polish kids to be named "Jessica" (a horrible mush-up of Polish and English pronunciation rules) because if Anglo culture didn't want that to happen they shouldn't have flooded our media with their content.
Oh, and there's a special place in hell for people who not only pick a foreign name but also one that violates their native tongue's pronunciation rules who then go around telling people "actually 'bju' is pronounced 'z'". Atrocious. Just spell it with a z then.
Tl;dr I think that if you like a name the way you say it there should be little to stop you from using it. Just face the facts and admit you've picked a weird name not a foreign one.
To me a foreign name I like is Kahina. Or rather I love it the way it looks to me. If I named my daughter Kahina it wouldn't be a Berber name meaning fortuneteller it'd be a nice sounding invented name, inspired by the Berber one but at this point pretty far removed.
The only reasons to give your kid the exact actual name from culture X and say stuff like "this is an X name meaning y" are: 1) you're part of that culture and you know what you're doing, 2) you're raising your kid within culture X.
The special third reason is when that culture made a concentrated effort to have an impact on your own culture. So, yeah, it is 100% okay for Polish kids to be named "Jessica" (a horrible mush-up of Polish and English pronunciation rules) because if Anglo culture didn't want that to happen they shouldn't have flooded our media with their content.
Oh, and there's a special place in hell for people who not only pick a foreign name but also one that violates their native tongue's pronunciation rules who then go around telling people "actually 'bju' is pronounced 'z'". Atrocious. Just spell it with a z then.
Tl;dr I think that if you like a name the way you say it there should be little to stop you from using it. Just face the facts and admit you've picked a weird name not a foreign one.
This message was edited 11/3/2020, 1:48 AM
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I personally don't believe in cultural appropriation. Use whatever name you want, when you want to use it! It's a free country :)
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If you were American and had an ancestor (no matter how remote) who was Native American, then I would not consider it an issue if you used Winona even if you appeared white. In your shoes, as a white British person with no connection to Native Americans, I would not use it. Maybe, if you visited Winona, Minnesota and had an amazing experience, it would create some affinity with the name that would make it seem more about the place rather than just randomly borrowing? Maybe if you married an American it would seem less odd? Quite a few Americans have some distant Native American ancestry (à la Elizabeth Warren), so I don't judge American people who may look white for using it since I have no idea about their heritage and recessive genes show up on reservations sometimes. If you are descended from Thomas Rolfe (Pocahontas's son), then a Tsenacommacah name would be okay. In general, I would find Native American names on British people odd.
I wouldn't use a Japanese name myself unless I married someone with Japanese heritage or if I lived in Japan for an extended period. Japanese people and culture wouldn't be harmed by you using a Japanese name, but it isn't something I would recommend. Using it as a middle name does seem better since hypothetically, they could use their Japanese name if you decided to move there or if they did an extended study abroad and wanted to assimilate.
I wouldn't use a Japanese name myself unless I married someone with Japanese heritage or if I lived in Japan for an extended period. Japanese people and culture wouldn't be harmed by you using a Japanese name, but it isn't something I would recommend. Using it as a middle name does seem better since hypothetically, they could use their Japanese name if you decided to move there or if they did an extended study abroad and wanted to assimilate.
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I think both would be inappropriate.
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I think it's okay to use. It seems like a name that is actually a name used in that particular culture and not a tribe name such as Dakota. It's also just a middle name. I would be honored if people used names from my culture, personally, because it would feel like people appreciate it. But I know that not everyone feels that way and that the case might be different with Native American names as that is in general a sensitive topic. I personally think it's fine, but I guess I would ask someone from the tribe to be sure. Or in an online forum about the culture of that tribe.
Sakura is fine. I know several people who worked in Japan for many years without having Japanese roots and who gave their kids a Japanese name. I think most Japanese people would be fine with it, I know that some of the people I was referring to were encouraged by Japanese friends or co-workers to choose a Japanese name.
Sakura is fine. I know several people who worked in Japan for many years without having Japanese roots and who gave their kids a Japanese name. I think most Japanese people would be fine with it, I know that some of the people I was referring to were encouraged by Japanese friends or co-workers to choose a Japanese name.
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Personally, I would not use them. There are many names in different cultures that I love, but I consider both the importance of the name (e.g., spiritual like Cohen) or if it belongs to a group that still faces discrimination in my country* (the US, like Asian Americans). A name might be seen as quirky or unique when on a white child while the names on those minorities are made fun of or people don't try to pronounce them.
*I don't know much about British culture, but a quick google search is showing me that there is certainly racism towards Asians over there.
*I don't know much about British culture, but a quick google search is showing me that there is certainly racism towards Asians over there.
This message was edited 11/1/2020, 2:47 PM
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This!
I was struggling to figure how to put into words what I wanted to say about the topic but you touched on it.
Cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation are two different things. Cultural appropriation requires something from the culture to be sacred to that culture, and there are many cultures where certain names or all of their names are spiritual and sacred. Not too long ago there was a user whose native name was in the database and it was a unique name and she requested it be removed for spiritual reasons. Being able to define what is spiritual requires you to have knowledge of that culture and I think since you admit you don't know much about native culture your only action is to identify individuals from the Sioux culture who have knowledge about their naming practices and learning more before deciding to use a name like Winona. I admit I don't know if the Sioux have sacred and spiritual practices behind choosing names.
Now lets talk about cultural appreciation. You could use a name like Sakura if you understand the naming culture in the country and understand that you are using it to honour such a practice since there is no spiritual or sacred attachment to the name Sakura. But you must understand the naming culture. Some names are strictly used by Buddhists or Shinto practitioners and provided to children by those monks or priests in naming ceremonies. I couldn't name them for you though, as I don't know much about their naming practices.
I was struggling to figure how to put into words what I wanted to say about the topic but you touched on it.
Cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation are two different things. Cultural appropriation requires something from the culture to be sacred to that culture, and there are many cultures where certain names or all of their names are spiritual and sacred. Not too long ago there was a user whose native name was in the database and it was a unique name and she requested it be removed for spiritual reasons. Being able to define what is spiritual requires you to have knowledge of that culture and I think since you admit you don't know much about native culture your only action is to identify individuals from the Sioux culture who have knowledge about their naming practices and learning more before deciding to use a name like Winona. I admit I don't know if the Sioux have sacred and spiritual practices behind choosing names.
Now lets talk about cultural appreciation. You could use a name like Sakura if you understand the naming culture in the country and understand that you are using it to honour such a practice since there is no spiritual or sacred attachment to the name Sakura. But you must understand the naming culture. Some names are strictly used by Buddhists or Shinto practitioners and provided to children by those monks or priests in naming ceremonies. I couldn't name them for you though, as I don't know much about their naming practices.
This message was edited 11/1/2020, 3:17 PM
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The racism is mostly towards those of Muslim faith and those from countries known for their Muslim population (eg India and Pakistan) so while you're right, the racism balance is overwhelmingly tipped towards South Asia (and I mean OVERWHELMINGLY). It's difficult to know where the line with this is
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I’ve been wondering about this as well.
After asking opinions on “foreign” names myself, there were some very strong opinions on how it is disrespectful to use these names if you are not from that particular culture.
It made me wonder where the limit is. A French name on a English child seems to be accepted, as do most names from European countries, but names that are”exotic” like for example Midori or Hadiya are being frowned upon. Yet Leilani (Hawaiian) and Corentin (French) are accepted? What makes the difference?
It makes me wonder too if it’s “alright” if we were to name our son Saul Ezekiel despite us not being Jewish. The same that is said about Sakura can be applied to Saul Ezekiel as well, but I don’t read discussions about that.
It’s all a question of personal opinion.
Personally I don’t see how naming your daughter Sakura or (in my case) your son Saul is being disrespectful.
After asking opinions on “foreign” names myself, there were some very strong opinions on how it is disrespectful to use these names if you are not from that particular culture.
It made me wonder where the limit is. A French name on a English child seems to be accepted, as do most names from European countries, but names that are”exotic” like for example Midori or Hadiya are being frowned upon. Yet Leilani (Hawaiian) and Corentin (French) are accepted? What makes the difference?
It makes me wonder too if it’s “alright” if we were to name our son Saul Ezekiel despite us not being Jewish. The same that is said about Sakura can be applied to Saul Ezekiel as well, but I don’t read discussions about that.
It’s all a question of personal opinion.
Personally I don’t see how naming your daughter Sakura or (in my case) your son Saul is being disrespectful.
This message was edited 11/1/2020, 2:37 PM
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I’ve been wondering about this as well.
After asking opinions on “foreign” names myself, there were some very strong opinions on how it is disrespectful to use these names if you are not from that particular culture.
It made me wonder where the limit is. A French name on a English child seems to be accepted, as do most names from European countries, but names that are”exotic” like for example Midori or Hadiya are being frowned upon. Yet Leilani (Hawaiian) and Corentin (French) are accepted? What makes the difference?
It makes me wonder too if it’s “alright” if I were to name my son Saul Ezekiel despite us not being Jewish. The same that is said about Sakura can be applied to Saul Ezekiel as well, but I don’t read discussions about that.
It’s all a question of personal opinion.
Personally I don’t see how naming your daughter Sakura or (in my case) your son Saul is being disrespectful.
After asking opinions on “foreign” names myself, there were some very strong opinions on how it is disrespectful to use these names if you are not from that particular culture.
It made me wonder where the limit is. A French name on a English child seems to be accepted, as do most names from European countries, but names that are”exotic” like for example Midori or Hadiya are being frowned upon. Yet Leilani (Hawaiian) and Corentin (French) are accepted? What makes the difference?
It makes me wonder too if it’s “alright” if I were to name my son Saul Ezekiel despite us not being Jewish. The same that is said about Sakura can be applied to Saul Ezekiel as well, but I don’t read discussions about that.
It’s all a question of personal opinion.
Personally I don’t see how naming your daughter Sakura or (in my case) your son Saul is being disrespectful.
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Yes it's getting really murky the longer I consider the subject. Leilani is a lovely name, but I understand that the tourist industry of Hawaii is actively harmful and so does that mean using Hawaiian names is wrong? Even the generally-accepted Leilani?
Then there's Yasmin, the Arabic variant of Jasmine (or the actual root of Jasmine? unsure) which is also a name I like a lot. Is that cultural appropriation?
But with my close roots to Ireland (my dad) but not Irish myself, and with the (very) recent conflict between Ireland and England, does that mean Irish names are wrong to use? How about Scottish? I've just given my comments on Alistair, a Scottish variant name.
Perhaps some people would consider Sakura okay because it's a flower, but in that case, what about other non-floral names like Megumi and Toshio?
I don't personally see any of it as disrespectful, but I do admit I still worry because of how prevalent "cancel culture" can be
Recently the showrunner of the new She-ra came under fire because she mentioned one of Bow's older brother's is a farmer called Sew. For context, Bow is a black character of two black scholar fathers and he fought alongside She-ra using his bow and arrow. Bow has twelve older brothers, all with names rhyming with Bow and Sew and all names are somehow related to their occupation. But she was called out for racism for saying one of Bow's brothers is a farmer called Sew. I. Don't. Get. It. Like I do (the history of black slaves and farming) but also isn't it racist to say, in this day and age, a fictional character cannot be a farmer because he's black?
And if something like that can happen, then I worry myself tbh and where this line is
Then there's Yasmin, the Arabic variant of Jasmine (or the actual root of Jasmine? unsure) which is also a name I like a lot. Is that cultural appropriation?
But with my close roots to Ireland (my dad) but not Irish myself, and with the (very) recent conflict between Ireland and England, does that mean Irish names are wrong to use? How about Scottish? I've just given my comments on Alistair, a Scottish variant name.
Perhaps some people would consider Sakura okay because it's a flower, but in that case, what about other non-floral names like Megumi and Toshio?
I don't personally see any of it as disrespectful, but I do admit I still worry because of how prevalent "cancel culture" can be
Recently the showrunner of the new She-ra came under fire because she mentioned one of Bow's older brother's is a farmer called Sew. For context, Bow is a black character of two black scholar fathers and he fought alongside She-ra using his bow and arrow. Bow has twelve older brothers, all with names rhyming with Bow and Sew and all names are somehow related to their occupation. But she was called out for racism for saying one of Bow's brothers is a farmer called Sew. I. Don't. Get. It. Like I do (the history of black slaves and farming) but also isn't it racist to say, in this day and age, a fictional character cannot be a farmer because he's black?
And if something like that can happen, then I worry myself tbh and where this line is
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I think it's fine to use a name from any language as long as you know what it means and you're not using it disrespectfully.
If you've spent more time involved with Japanese culture then it might be more appropriate for you to use a Japanese name, but I don't think there'd be anything wrong with you using Winona either.
As an American English speaker, I wouldn't give my kid the name Sakura as a first name because it's impossible to pronounce correctly in an American accent. The "ra" in American English sound nothing like the "ra" in Japanese, and it would be weird to pronounce your kid's name in a different accent than the rest of your speech all the time. But I'd be fine naming a kid Hana or Aiko because those names can be pronounced normally in my accent without being totally wrong.
If you've spent more time involved with Japanese culture then it might be more appropriate for you to use a Japanese name, but I don't think there'd be anything wrong with you using Winona either.
As an American English speaker, I wouldn't give my kid the name Sakura as a first name because it's impossible to pronounce correctly in an American accent. The "ra" in American English sound nothing like the "ra" in Japanese, and it would be weird to pronounce your kid's name in a different accent than the rest of your speech all the time. But I'd be fine naming a kid Hana or Aiko because those names can be pronounced normally in my accent without being totally wrong.
This message was edited 11/1/2020, 2:00 PM
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That's because Cheyenne isn't even meant to be a given name and Winona is. I think most people use Cheyenne as a place name but still, it's an exonym so it's not even the correct name for a tribe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheyenne#Name
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I can definitely understand the cultural appropriation thing. THATS a pretty big deal nowadays. I’m happy you’re educating yourself on this topic, but me personally, the only Japanese names I like is Ayano, and Midori. But I’m not Japanese so I would never use them. Otherwise, I wouldn’t really recommend the name Sakura. It will definitely turn heads, but it’s not all bad.
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oof
If you and/or your spouse aren't of Japanese or Native American descent, then I'd say it's definitely not ok to use those for a first or last name.
Good job educating yourself on other cultures, though. That's a good use of free time. c:
If you and/or your spouse aren't of Japanese or Native American descent, then I'd say it's definitely not ok to use those for a first or last name.
Good job educating yourself on other cultures, though. That's a good use of free time. c:
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