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HelpRe: Why does it need to be feminine?
in reply to a message by basilisk
Hm, obviously I didn't communicate what I was trying to say. I was talking about intuitions based not on gender (man/woman) as a human expression but Gender as an abstract principle, a fundamental asymmetry, a duality that isn't really two separate things but arises from conceptualization ... yin and yang? The Genders (not the genders man and woman) that are asymmetrically interdependent. Symmetry and equality are two different things... Geez, nevermind. I don't think I'm going to be able to successfully communicate what I'm trying to explain here.
I'm not intuitively less comfortable with femininity, and I don't really think masculinity is "weak." Discomfort with femininity corresponds to insecurity in masculinity, and weak masculinity is only weak because femininity is degraded.
I think the feminine principles have been honored and functional in Western society. It's *women* who have been dishonored. Feminine things that are *about women* are dishonored. Feminine principles, though, have been disassociated with women, and made out to be abstractions for men to pursue, control, and possess. While masculine principles have remained associated with men.
Anyway I think it's interesting how people feel about the naming thing ... I'm curious about exactly what people think differently from me, if they did see what I was trying to say, but still think boys-with-girl-names would be really positive. If anyone wants to talk about it, feel free to PM me.
- mirfak
I'm not intuitively less comfortable with femininity, and I don't really think masculinity is "weak." Discomfort with femininity corresponds to insecurity in masculinity, and weak masculinity is only weak because femininity is degraded.
I think the feminine principles have been honored and functional in Western society. It's *women* who have been dishonored. Feminine things that are *about women* are dishonored. Feminine principles, though, have been disassociated with women, and made out to be abstractions for men to pursue, control, and possess. While masculine principles have remained associated with men.
Anyway I think it's interesting how people feel about the naming thing ... I'm curious about exactly what people think differently from me, if they did see what I was trying to say, but still think boys-with-girl-names would be really positive. If anyone wants to talk about it, feel free to PM me.
- mirfak
This message was edited 3/8/2018, 1:15 PM
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I think feminine principles haven't been honored, and that women aren't really separate from them. The thesis-driven essay is my go-to example - it was driven down everyone's throats, and people aren't even aware it's biased. What about the reflective or open-ended or mysterious essay? Syntax that opens up, rather than trying to prove? But it's all over the place. Brutalization of natural places rather than respect and incorporation of them into living places. Competitive and achievement based diction being inherent in almost every structure. Job hierarchies being thought of as hierarchies, where bosses are "on top" rather than equal-level facilitators of other people's jobs.
I agree that when one is degraded the other is weakened. But consciously, on the level of conscious choices, our society has favored the cosmetic strength of masculinity in general and men specifically, over femininity in general and women specifically, in almost every area there has been a choice.
That's changing now, I think, but it is the cultural world I inherited.
I agree that when one is degraded the other is weakened. But consciously, on the level of conscious choices, our society has favored the cosmetic strength of masculinity in general and men specifically, over femininity in general and women specifically, in almost every area there has been a choice.
That's changing now, I think, but it is the cultural world I inherited.
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I see the stuff on your laundry list as the expression of cultural beliefs about reality and what we are. I think misogyny is a sibling of that stuff, not a source of it. Anyway, I take your point, that in the sense you mean, feminine concepts are devalued and not honored. And it's not just out of misogyny, nor for the sake of gender hierarchy. Yep.
I guess my question to you is - what effect would you hope it would have, to name boys with feminine names? Would those become formerly-feminine names? How, exactly, do you suppose it would work to improve anything - if as many boys were named with traditional girl-names, as there are girls named with traditional boy-names? Or do you just feel that it would be positive, exciting, and don't think it's worth it to theorize about problem-solving, because like, things just flow? (no snark)
Yeah of course.
My idea was that it's possible, that our explanations of "society's conscious choices," of why people decide as they do about baby names, don't reflect conscious awareness of all of the influences on individual choices. I'm trying to figure how it can be, that people who really feel the asymmetry derives from sexism, who are eager to defy sexist norms, still aren't really willing to walk the talk. I don't think they're necessarily just programmed or hypocritical. It's not that I think the asymmetry of cross-gender naming is never sexist, and it's not that I don't appreciate why people interpret it as sexist.
I guess my question to you is - what effect would you hope it would have, to name boys with feminine names? Would those become formerly-feminine names? How, exactly, do you suppose it would work to improve anything - if as many boys were named with traditional girl-names, as there are girls named with traditional boy-names? Or do you just feel that it would be positive, exciting, and don't think it's worth it to theorize about problem-solving, because like, things just flow? (no snark)
Yeah of course.
My idea was that it's possible, that our explanations of "society's conscious choices," of why people decide as they do about baby names, don't reflect conscious awareness of all of the influences on individual choices. I'm trying to figure how it can be, that people who really feel the asymmetry derives from sexism, who are eager to defy sexist norms, still aren't really willing to walk the talk. I don't think they're necessarily just programmed or hypocritical. It's not that I think the asymmetry of cross-gender naming is never sexist, and it's not that I don't appreciate why people interpret it as sexist.
This message was edited 3/9/2018, 1:58 PM
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