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I'm starting to think Patty is pretty cute, though I don't really like Patricia. WDYT of Patricia nn Patty?
I bet it'll be in in about 20 years, along with Sally, Polly, and Betsy, all of which I love.
ETA: I just looked it up and see it was originally a roundabout nickname for Martha! I like Martha nn Patty more than Patricia, even though it doesn't make much sense.
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I bet it'll be in in about 20 years, along with Sally, Polly, and Betsy, all of which I love.
ETA: I just looked it up and see it was originally a roundabout nickname for Martha! I like Martha nn Patty more than Patricia, even though it doesn't make much sense.
This message was edited 12/1/2015, 4:26 PM
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Replies
Patricia is loads better. I actually really don't mind it. I'd personally go with a completely separate nickname such as Trish
Patty not only comes across as sounding too nickname-ish, I can't help but to picture a Patty on an older woman (50's or above) she's shorter in stature and has a large girth, ugly, frog eyes (bulging type of eyes) really rude, grumpy, too serious about every aspect of life. A teacher or principal hated mutually by all students.
Funny, Polly is actually my mother's name.
Patty not only comes across as sounding too nickname-ish, I can't help but to picture a Patty on an older woman (50's or above) she's shorter in stature and has a large girth, ugly, frog eyes (bulging type of eyes) really rude, grumpy, too serious about every aspect of life. A teacher or principal hated mutually by all students.
Funny, Polly is actually my mother's name.
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The impression I get from Patty is that she used to be a tomboy but now she spends most of her time sitting inside crocheting afghans and watching reruns of Bonanza, which would be fine...except I don't generally like names that remind me of food, and Patty brings to mind hamburgers and peppermint patties.
I think Martha is best without a nn.
I've don't like Patricia, either. The soft sound is unappealing to me, plus it's too much like patrician.
I do like nn Trish as well as Patrick, though...
I think Martha is best without a nn.
I've don't like Patricia, either. The soft sound is unappealing to me, plus it's too much like patrician.
I do like nn Trish as well as Patrick, though...
This message was edited 12/2/2015, 1:01 PM
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Patricia nn Patty is about 70 now. She is quiet, smart, determined, a little sarcastic but not abrasive. I never really liked the name but don't mind it, it sounds likeable. Patty seems to me like a 20th century name, like Betsy and Peggy, but Martha seems like a lumpy antique that goes more with Bertha and Agatha. Martha nn Patty is interesting. Could seem a little artificed.
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My sister's name is Patricia nn Patty. We had a great-aunt who always spelled her name Paddie. And when my sister and I were in England together, a guy gave me a hard time about how I said her name, because I said it "Paddy" instead of hard-pronouncing the Ts in the middle. Shut up, jerk, I'm American.
I see the appeal that Patricia once had for so many. It's soft and long and looks and sounds elegant. Unlike you, I like Patricia a lot more than I like Martha. But I've never been able to warm to the nickname Patty.
My sister tried, when she was in the third grade, to change her nickname to Trish, but it didn't stick. It started on the first day of school when the teacher saw her name was Patricia and asked, "What are you called? Trish?" My sister decided to go with it and said, "Yes." She thinks that was stupid now.
I see the appeal that Patricia once had for so many. It's soft and long and looks and sounds elegant. Unlike you, I like Patricia a lot more than I like Martha. But I've never been able to warm to the nickname Patty.
My sister tried, when she was in the third grade, to change her nickname to Trish, but it didn't stick. It started on the first day of school when the teacher saw her name was Patricia and asked, "What are you called? Trish?" My sister decided to go with it and said, "Yes." She thinks that was stupid now.
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Though I have never heard Patty being used as a nickname for Martha, I can understand how it could be. In England there were so few names being used that some of the nicknames were often given other letters so as to give them some differentiation. There would be too many Margarets shortened to Meg (or Meggy, I guess), that they just changed the M to a P, and it became Peggy. There were too many Richards who went by Rick that they'd change the first letter of Rick and get Dick (or Hick).
With Martha, you could get the nickname Matty, which, à la Peggy, could be changed to Patty given those principles.
With Martha, you could get the nickname Matty, which, à la Peggy, could be changed to Patty given those principles.
This message was edited 12/1/2015, 7:38 PM
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I had no idea this was done purposefully for variation! Interesting!
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To my knowledge, they didn't just pick random letters to substitute but Peggy, Peg, Polly (Molly), Dick etc came about from usually younger siblings trying to say the nicknames. Linguistically P and D sounds are easier than M or R sounds for little kids, which is why so many children say Papa or Dada before Mama.
The nicknames would have stuck because of the lack of name variety though!
The nicknames would have stuck because of the lack of name variety though!
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Not to impede upon your authority, but here is an article that explains the middle ages trend of swapping first letters of nicknames, see William, Robert, and (especially) Edward.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/24761/origins-10-nicknames
http://mentalfloss.com/article/24761/origins-10-nicknames
This message was edited 12/2/2015, 2:17 PM
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Well Sol Steinmetz, a renowned linguist, cites Peg and Peggy as examples of how language has evolved from baby talk. https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0307496465
I have also read other books that have referred to it. I'm going to take his word for it over a journalist on Mental Floss who doesn't cite his sources.
I also wasn't disagreeing with the all of what you said. Just that they didn't randomly decide to replace letters. The replaced letters did stick though because there was a lack of variety in names.
I have also read other books that have referred to it. I'm going to take his word for it over a journalist on Mental Floss who doesn't cite his sources.
I also wasn't disagreeing with the all of what you said. Just that they didn't randomly decide to replace letters. The replaced letters did stick though because there was a lack of variety in names.
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I have read other sources besides that one, it was just one of the many things that came up when I Googled the commonly known trend of letter swapping. Plenty of adults also have speech problems especially noting the standards of education in the middle ages, so, it could have just as easily been a lack of formal education in adults that reshaped the nicknames.
Since none of us were alive in the middle ages, there is no way of knowing whether babies inspired the changes without a contemporary account that states that it was so, but thank you for posting the theory.
Since none of us were alive in the middle ages, there is no way of knowing whether babies inspired the changes without a contemporary account that states that it was so, but thank you for posting the theory.
This message was edited 12/2/2015, 2:41 PM
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Agreed :)
It's interesting regardless how it happened.
It's interesting regardless how it happened.
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I've read that article previously as I follow Mental Floss on Facebook. I disagree with the article where it states "There are many theories on why Bill became a nickname for William; the most obvious is that it was part of the Middle Ages trend of letter swapping." I don't believe that Bill began being used as a nickname for William until the early-to-mid-nineteenth century. Before that, the only nickname was Will. The article states that William III was called "King Billy" in the late seventeenth century, but although he is called King Billy in Northern Ireland and Scotland according to Wikipedia, it doesn't state that the term was contemporary to his time.
You just never hear of a Bill before the early nineteenth century and I don't think it became really common until the mid nineteenth century. It was Will Shakespeare, not Bill Shakespeare.
You just never hear of a Bill before the early nineteenth century and I don't think it became really common until the mid nineteenth century. It was Will Shakespeare, not Bill Shakespeare.
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I really dislike Patty. It makes me think of burgers. I love Patricia actually, but Patty, Patsy, and Trish all put me off of it. Also, the Ingalls family always had horses named Pet and Patty. My huge take away from the Little House books, haha. That's not necessarily negative but it's what I think of and obviously animal in that regard.
I also dislike Martha, though your Martha is super precious. I can't handle the Marth- sound. I do enjoy those round about nicknames though. I kind of like the idea of sisters Martha and Mary called Patty and Polly.
I also dislike Martha, though your Martha is super precious. I can't handle the Marth- sound. I do enjoy those round about nicknames though. I kind of like the idea of sisters Martha and Mary called Patty and Polly.
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Delaware's most infamous woman, Martha "Patty" Cannon, comes immediately to mind re: Patty as a nn for Martha. She was kind of a bounty hunter, who with her crew kidnapped free black people or escaped slaves and turned them in, or robbed and killed them.
Anyway, Patricia is pretty, but I don't really care for Patty, because it seems even more middle-aged than Patricia does. pat is a bit more brisk and fresh, and Tricia more youthful.
Anyway, Patricia is pretty, but I don't really care for Patty, because it seems even more middle-aged than Patricia does. pat is a bit more brisk and fresh, and Tricia more youthful.
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Ok, that is probably the worst association I could think of. Yikes. Makes me wary of the name now.
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I was going to say ...
That George Washington had a stepdaughter called Patty, short for Martha, but I foudn out she was Patsy, rather than Patty. Patsy is worse.
That George Washington had a stepdaughter called Patty, short for Martha, but I foudn out she was Patsy, rather than Patty. Patsy is worse.
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Really? As evil behavior goes, that's quite run-of-the-mill. May as well let Elizabeth Bathory (much worse) make you wary of Elizabeth, or Kate Bender (about the same) make you wary of Kate.
I admit that the fact that Manson exists gives me the chills when I hear Charles and especially Charlie, but I seem to be alone in that, and I admit it's not logical.
I admit that the fact that Manson exists gives me the chills when I hear Charles and especially Charlie, but I seem to be alone in that, and I admit it's not logical.
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Wow, that's an awful namesake. Wasn't Martha Jefferson known as Patty?
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Yes, she was, along with countless other non-famous Marthas nn Pattys. But she wasn't exactly a good namesake either, in that next to nothing is known of her other than that she died young because her body couldn't take the stress of constant child-bearing.
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I mainly associate her with being played by a young Gwyneth Paltrow in "Jefferson in Paris"
Not saying she's the greatest namesake ever, but better than the one Starla mentioned.
Not saying she's the greatest namesake ever, but better than the one Starla mentioned.
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