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HelpRe: Japanese names on non-japanese kids?
in reply to a message by shijin
Yeah - exactly, on your second para.
It would seem shallow or "tacky" not because of the race difference, but because of the assumption (by white Americans) that white American parents wouldn't know the cultural connotations of a Japanese name in Japanese culture. And it's not even a racist assumption. I guess what would be racism would be the assumption that it is shallower to use a French name without knowing its cultural connotations in France, than a Japanese name without knowing its connotations in Japan...
But more likely it's just cynicism based on the idea that Americans are racist, or at least feel alienated from Japanese culture. That is, the idea that they'd name from French out of admiration and desire to identify themselves with Frenchness in general, whatever the cultural meanings there -- while they'd name from Japanese out of mere affinity for a particular Japanese cultural product, even though they are alienated from the very fact that there is an entire Japanese cultural context.
Cynical, yeah, but I think it's a common assumption by the mere fact that the question gets asked. Maybe it's not so much cynicism about each other, as it is self-recognition of actual shallowness, and fear that we don't really "get" Japanese culture? Just some thoughts here. Not arguing with you. I agree with you about the double standard, I just think it's interesting.
Interesting comment you have about a Japanese person taking such an approach to a name from your own heritage. So image wouldn't matter? I mean, just because the parents understand the name's meaning in its "native" culture, doesn't mean it won't seem odd (shallow or imitative) on the kid, to people who are casually acquainted.
I'm trying to figure out if I assume, say, a blond American kid with a Japanese name would make a significantly different first impression from a Japanese looking kid with a Dutch name. There'd be no reason to assume that the Japanese parents did their homework, but the white American kid's didn't... not that I think people wouldn't assume that. :-P I mean, of course it'd depend on where you were -- but the question I have is, do you think the predicted knee-jerk-reaction "public image" (shallow, imitative, whatever) that is created, in whatever the child's context actually is, matters; or does it not matter as long as the family and namebearer know the complex native meaning?
My personal conclusion is that it doesn't matter what the public image is, nor does it matter if the family knows jack about the name's context. However, I'd hold myself to a standard of knowledge before using names from Japanese, because I feel more ignorant of Japanese culture than I do of, say, French. And I'd hesitate anyway because of the fear of it appearing shallow, even if it wasn't. And ultimately I'd decide to do it because like you, I can't picture a Japanese person seeing it as shallow (although Americans might): more likely, they'd assume I'd bothered to learn the Japanese connotations. Just like I'd assume that they'd done so before naming their kid an English name.
Sorry for rambling... you got me thinking :-P I guess I came to the same conclusion you did - that it only would matter what Japanese people thought, so really you'd only need to understand what it meant for them, to heck with what Americans might see of themselves in it. Is that right?
- chazda
It would seem shallow or "tacky" not because of the race difference, but because of the assumption (by white Americans) that white American parents wouldn't know the cultural connotations of a Japanese name in Japanese culture. And it's not even a racist assumption. I guess what would be racism would be the assumption that it is shallower to use a French name without knowing its cultural connotations in France, than a Japanese name without knowing its connotations in Japan...
But more likely it's just cynicism based on the idea that Americans are racist, or at least feel alienated from Japanese culture. That is, the idea that they'd name from French out of admiration and desire to identify themselves with Frenchness in general, whatever the cultural meanings there -- while they'd name from Japanese out of mere affinity for a particular Japanese cultural product, even though they are alienated from the very fact that there is an entire Japanese cultural context.
Cynical, yeah, but I think it's a common assumption by the mere fact that the question gets asked. Maybe it's not so much cynicism about each other, as it is self-recognition of actual shallowness, and fear that we don't really "get" Japanese culture? Just some thoughts here. Not arguing with you. I agree with you about the double standard, I just think it's interesting.
Interesting comment you have about a Japanese person taking such an approach to a name from your own heritage. So image wouldn't matter? I mean, just because the parents understand the name's meaning in its "native" culture, doesn't mean it won't seem odd (shallow or imitative) on the kid, to people who are casually acquainted.
I'm trying to figure out if I assume, say, a blond American kid with a Japanese name would make a significantly different first impression from a Japanese looking kid with a Dutch name. There'd be no reason to assume that the Japanese parents did their homework, but the white American kid's didn't... not that I think people wouldn't assume that. :-P I mean, of course it'd depend on where you were -- but the question I have is, do you think the predicted knee-jerk-reaction "public image" (shallow, imitative, whatever) that is created, in whatever the child's context actually is, matters; or does it not matter as long as the family and namebearer know the complex native meaning?
My personal conclusion is that it doesn't matter what the public image is, nor does it matter if the family knows jack about the name's context. However, I'd hold myself to a standard of knowledge before using names from Japanese, because I feel more ignorant of Japanese culture than I do of, say, French. And I'd hesitate anyway because of the fear of it appearing shallow, even if it wasn't. And ultimately I'd decide to do it because like you, I can't picture a Japanese person seeing it as shallow (although Americans might): more likely, they'd assume I'd bothered to learn the Japanese connotations. Just like I'd assume that they'd done so before naming their kid an English name.
Sorry for rambling... you got me thinking :-P I guess I came to the same conclusion you did - that it only would matter what Japanese people thought, so really you'd only need to understand what it meant for them, to heck with what Americans might see of themselves in it. Is that right?
- chazda
This message was edited 1/30/2006, 7:25 PM
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For a brief moment, I considered giving my son a Japanese middle name, not necessarily because of my interest in Japanese culture, but because I thought the ones I had in mind were phonetically attractive. I backed off, though. I guess I ultimately felt like I wasn't capable of immersing myself in Japanese culture with the resources I have at-hand - time, mostly - to an extent that would satisfy that sense that I needed to do right by the Japanese before borrowing something uniquely theirs.
Where I contradict myself, though - and I think this may be a prime example of what I was suggesting - is that the two names his mother and I chose for him are used in the United States next to never. They're English, and though I can claim some English blood, and though we speak a common language, we're almost as far removed from English culture as we are the Japanese, and yet we decided to use these names without so much as a thought as to how the name would work inside its native culture. I have about as great an understanding of how the English look upon the name Clive as I do how the Japanese view the name Takeshi.
Anyway, I agree that the situation's probably a great deal more complex than I initally eluded to. Some random thoughts (mostly because I'm too tired for anything elaborate):
Interesting comment you have about a Japanese person taking such an approach to a name from your own heritage. So image wouldn't matter? I mean, just because the parents understand the name's meaning in its "native" culture, doesn't mean it won't seem odd (shallow or imitative) on the kid, to people who are casually acquainted.
I think I can answer that question for both of us. If image didn't matter, neither of us would be here, right? But, if I understand you correctly - that you're referring to how someone from one's own culture takes to a foreign name on one's child - I'd say that my opinion would vary from person to person. You could apply this same argument to another situation entirely - say, a generation gap. I, for instance, don't really care about what my parents think of the names I've chosen for my children specifically because I understand that their opinions are the products of another time.
Where I contradict myself, though - and I think this may be a prime example of what I was suggesting - is that the two names his mother and I chose for him are used in the United States next to never. They're English, and though I can claim some English blood, and though we speak a common language, we're almost as far removed from English culture as we are the Japanese, and yet we decided to use these names without so much as a thought as to how the name would work inside its native culture. I have about as great an understanding of how the English look upon the name Clive as I do how the Japanese view the name Takeshi.
Anyway, I agree that the situation's probably a great deal more complex than I initally eluded to. Some random thoughts (mostly because I'm too tired for anything elaborate):
Interesting comment you have about a Japanese person taking such an approach to a name from your own heritage. So image wouldn't matter? I mean, just because the parents understand the name's meaning in its "native" culture, doesn't mean it won't seem odd (shallow or imitative) on the kid, to people who are casually acquainted.
I think I can answer that question for both of us. If image didn't matter, neither of us would be here, right? But, if I understand you correctly - that you're referring to how someone from one's own culture takes to a foreign name on one's child - I'd say that my opinion would vary from person to person. You could apply this same argument to another situation entirely - say, a generation gap. I, for instance, don't really care about what my parents think of the names I've chosen for my children specifically because I understand that their opinions are the products of another time.
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Wow. Someone else thinks about this as hard as I do?! Wow.
being perfectly honest, there's an expression of myself in my choice of baby names; my desire to represent myself as a trend-setting parent is a component here in much the same way that the shirt on my back and the car I drive speaks of my tastes - I would think so for most people, though there are some people, I'm sure, who can't be bothered to care, or some people who just don't understand their social standing well enough to accurately assess the situation.
I think the child should view the name bestowed upon him as he views the curvature of his nose or the color of his eyes - not choices, but given traits that influence the choices he makes.
though my primary interest is in giving my son a name that will do right by him, I have to admit that I - like most parents, I think - tend to commodify my child in my approach to baby naming. He becomes a walking, talking billboard for the virtues of my genes. It might not the healthiest attitude for a dad-to-be, but I'm trying to be as honest as I can.
This is great. Thanks for your thoughts. It's a treasure for me. I'm so stuck on the naming thing.
The virtues of our genes, you say. I never thought of it that way. Fascinating. This is a much more functional POV than the one I've been taking, which is that my values and background produce a taste and a self-image, and that produces a name for my kid - which imposes on and limits that person in some way I can't see. But hell, you're right in a way. I mean, I am who I am in part because of genes, and in part by fate - and so will be my kid. Not a whole lot of difference it's going to make, even if I could come up with a name that transcended myself. It might never have occurred to me to do as you do though - to just take credit for your tastes, and accept that any name's compromises become historical, not something a person has to negotiate daily. Rather than questioning your choices into dust until you don't know what to do. Heh.
- chazda
being perfectly honest, there's an expression of myself in my choice of baby names; my desire to represent myself as a trend-setting parent is a component here in much the same way that the shirt on my back and the car I drive speaks of my tastes - I would think so for most people, though there are some people, I'm sure, who can't be bothered to care, or some people who just don't understand their social standing well enough to accurately assess the situation.
I think the child should view the name bestowed upon him as he views the curvature of his nose or the color of his eyes - not choices, but given traits that influence the choices he makes.
though my primary interest is in giving my son a name that will do right by him, I have to admit that I - like most parents, I think - tend to commodify my child in my approach to baby naming. He becomes a walking, talking billboard for the virtues of my genes. It might not the healthiest attitude for a dad-to-be, but I'm trying to be as honest as I can.
This is great. Thanks for your thoughts. It's a treasure for me. I'm so stuck on the naming thing.
The virtues of our genes, you say. I never thought of it that way. Fascinating. This is a much more functional POV than the one I've been taking, which is that my values and background produce a taste and a self-image, and that produces a name for my kid - which imposes on and limits that person in some way I can't see. But hell, you're right in a way. I mean, I am who I am in part because of genes, and in part by fate - and so will be my kid. Not a whole lot of difference it's going to make, even if I could come up with a name that transcended myself. It might never have occurred to me to do as you do though - to just take credit for your tastes, and accept that any name's compromises become historical, not something a person has to negotiate daily. Rather than questioning your choices into dust until you don't know what to do. Heh.
- chazda
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