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Help[Facts] Hard to believe? Naming laws still exist today...
While surfing the 'net, I came across this news article, dated June 6, 2001, which appeared in the online version of *The Prague Post*: *********************************************************
Parents to decide what's in a name
Change in law will finally permit families to select 'second,' or middle, names
By Kate Swoger
Soon, little Unidentified, a baby girl living in Kokasice, west Bohemia, will have a new identity. She will become Yaa Rosalie.
But until July 1, when a law that has forbidden middle names for half a century is revised, the three-month-old girl will remain nameless in the eyes of the state.
Unidentified's parents, Barbora Kurcova and Petr Hajek, are angry that the government has interfered with their name choice.
"The state has no right to decide about anything regarding our child," Hajek fumed. "To forbid giving names that parents choose for their child is trampling on basic human rights."
The newborn's identity problems began when her parents' independent spirit collided with inflexible government bureaucracy.
Under a law that has governed babies' names since 1950, names like Yaa Rosalie are forbidden unless hyphenated. Moreover, child names are subject to the approval of a government-appointed expert, Miroslava Knappova, who has compiled a "blue book" of about 20,000 acceptable existing names, both Czech and foreign.
When government clerks balked at Yaa Rosalie, Hajek refused to sign the birth registry forms. As a result, his paternity has not been recognized and so the baby simply bears her mother's last name, Kurcova, for now.
Rules about what parents can call their offspring exist to protect children from ridicule, explained Jiri Hajek, a spokesman for the Interior Ministry.
"Of course, there are people who are reasonable and pick a name like Yaa Rosalie," he said. "But at the same time there are people who are not so reasonable and want to name their child Jagr because they are mad about hockey."
Jiri Hajek notes that while middle names are not officially recognized by the state, parents can informally pick one. His "unofficial" middle name, he says, is Frantisek.
Laws regulating what parents can name their children exist elsewhere, including France, Italy, Germany and Canada.
But the nameless newborn's father deplores the idea of a faceless bureaucrat regulating baby names.
"Somebody sitting at their desk and deciding about what people should be named smacks of totalitarianism to me," said Petr Hajek, who has filed a complaint with the state ombudsman.
He and Kurcova put a lot of thought into their name choice, he said. He chose the name Yaa and Kurcova picked Rosalie.
"[Yaa] means 'a daughter' or 'little' in ... Esperanto. That's one reason why I like it. The other is that when you pronounce it, it sounds like the Czech word ja [I, me]," he said.
Kurcova chose Rosalie because the night before she gave birth she performed an old Indian ritual in which she cooked boar meat on rose hips. Petr Hajek was also reading Sleeping Beauty that night. In Czech, the fairy tale is called The Princess of the Rose Hips.
When their daughter grows up, she can use the name she likes best, Petr Hajek explained.
Her parents will return to the birth registry to get the official stamp of approval for Yaa Rosalie after July 1.
But Petr Hajek doesn't think the planned change to the law is much of an improvement. A child named Yaa Rosalie Patty would not be allowed, for example.
"It's as stupid as the old one," he said. "The only difference is that it forbids three given names instead of two."
***************************************************************
Funny thing, but "Yaa" isn't an "Esperanto name". It's not even an Esperanto word.
-- Nanaea
Parents to decide what's in a name
Change in law will finally permit families to select 'second,' or middle, names
By Kate Swoger
Soon, little Unidentified, a baby girl living in Kokasice, west Bohemia, will have a new identity. She will become Yaa Rosalie.
But until July 1, when a law that has forbidden middle names for half a century is revised, the three-month-old girl will remain nameless in the eyes of the state.
Unidentified's parents, Barbora Kurcova and Petr Hajek, are angry that the government has interfered with their name choice.
"The state has no right to decide about anything regarding our child," Hajek fumed. "To forbid giving names that parents choose for their child is trampling on basic human rights."
The newborn's identity problems began when her parents' independent spirit collided with inflexible government bureaucracy.
Under a law that has governed babies' names since 1950, names like Yaa Rosalie are forbidden unless hyphenated. Moreover, child names are subject to the approval of a government-appointed expert, Miroslava Knappova, who has compiled a "blue book" of about 20,000 acceptable existing names, both Czech and foreign.
When government clerks balked at Yaa Rosalie, Hajek refused to sign the birth registry forms. As a result, his paternity has not been recognized and so the baby simply bears her mother's last name, Kurcova, for now.
Rules about what parents can call their offspring exist to protect children from ridicule, explained Jiri Hajek, a spokesman for the Interior Ministry.
"Of course, there are people who are reasonable and pick a name like Yaa Rosalie," he said. "But at the same time there are people who are not so reasonable and want to name their child Jagr because they are mad about hockey."
Jiri Hajek notes that while middle names are not officially recognized by the state, parents can informally pick one. His "unofficial" middle name, he says, is Frantisek.
Laws regulating what parents can name their children exist elsewhere, including France, Italy, Germany and Canada.
But the nameless newborn's father deplores the idea of a faceless bureaucrat regulating baby names.
"Somebody sitting at their desk and deciding about what people should be named smacks of totalitarianism to me," said Petr Hajek, who has filed a complaint with the state ombudsman.
He and Kurcova put a lot of thought into their name choice, he said. He chose the name Yaa and Kurcova picked Rosalie.
"[Yaa] means 'a daughter' or 'little' in ... Esperanto. That's one reason why I like it. The other is that when you pronounce it, it sounds like the Czech word ja [I, me]," he said.
Kurcova chose Rosalie because the night before she gave birth she performed an old Indian ritual in which she cooked boar meat on rose hips. Petr Hajek was also reading Sleeping Beauty that night. In Czech, the fairy tale is called The Princess of the Rose Hips.
When their daughter grows up, she can use the name she likes best, Petr Hajek explained.
Her parents will return to the birth registry to get the official stamp of approval for Yaa Rosalie after July 1.
But Petr Hajek doesn't think the planned change to the law is much of an improvement. A child named Yaa Rosalie Patty would not be allowed, for example.
"It's as stupid as the old one," he said. "The only difference is that it forbids three given names instead of two."
***************************************************************
Funny thing, but "Yaa" isn't an "Esperanto name". It's not even an Esperanto word.
-- Nanaea
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Replies
i don't think there should be name laws, but i think parents should think about what they are doing to their children by the names they choose.
Example: A man around the time of the revolution in 1770's named his daughters with strange names, the youngest with the worst; the other three i don't remember.
The last named daughter was ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANICA.
The poor girl didn't get married.
There are others i've come across while doing genealogy.
Shalom
Example: A man around the time of the revolution in 1770's named his daughters with strange names, the youngest with the worst; the other three i don't remember.
The last named daughter was ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANICA.
The poor girl didn't get married.
There are others i've come across while doing genealogy.
Shalom
1
You know? This isn't a bad idea!
Of course I'm not talking about this example, but we talk about stupid parents who name their kids stupid names, and actually, in extreme cases, it is a form of mental abuse that no one can touch. We finally have child protection acts, but before that, the rare people who tried to help abused children would contact the ASPCA for lack of an appropriate organization.
We need to protect kids from being named Booger, Hitler, Robot and Scarz!
Yeah.
Of course I'm not talking about this example, but we talk about stupid parents who name their kids stupid names, and actually, in extreme cases, it is a form of mental abuse that no one can touch. We finally have child protection acts, but before that, the rare people who tried to help abused children would contact the ASPCA for lack of an appropriate organization.
We need to protect kids from being named Booger, Hitler, Robot and Scarz!
Yeah.
1
Yes I can see your point Andrea. But I can also see Nanaea's side. Who's to decide what names are "silly". I like quite a few off the wall names which, I'm sure lots of folks would think were silly. I didn't actually use them to name my two children (John & Megan) but, if I had chosen to, I wouldn't want someone telling me it was aganst the law. After all, if a person gets stuck with a name they abhor, they can always have it legally changed
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** they can always have it legally changed **
True, Cheryl, but how many 10-year olds do you suppose go to court to change their name? And THAT'S when the damage is done, NOT when hey're old enough to have the savvy and the 500 bucks to make the change.
I'm really torn over this issue cuz I don't relish the notion that the guvmint can dictate what we name our kids, but perhaps someone somehow should be protecting innocent children from total morons who possess the minimal talent to reproduce themselves.
- Da.
True, Cheryl, but how many 10-year olds do you suppose go to court to change their name? And THAT'S when the damage is done, NOT when hey're old enough to have the savvy and the 500 bucks to make the change.
I'm really torn over this issue cuz I don't relish the notion that the guvmint can dictate what we name our kids, but perhaps someone somehow should be protecting innocent children from total morons who possess the minimal talent to reproduce themselves.
- Da.
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It ain't a good idea...
I'm 100 percent with you, Daividh, about telling guvmint where they can put their dictates. And I wonder whether the issue of what parents choose to name their children may someday come under the same line of fire as the issue of whether or not spanking is to be considered child abuse. (Personally, I am not an advocate of spanking -- unless it's being done between consenting adults.)
I think that any parent in the U.S. and the majority of European countries (I'm ruling out certain cultures here where it's customary to tag an unpleasant name on an infant in order to make the child less attractive to demons) who is seriously contemplating a name like "Shithead" for his/her unborn child is already going to be exhibiting other signs of instability -- signs which shouldn't go too easily unnoticed by the rest of society.
The pregnant woman may be smoking, drinking, or shooting crank. The father-to-be may be abusing the family pet.
My point is this: The abuse -- and potential for abuse -- will have begun long before this child is born and named. Society has to be able to identify toxic parents before they even get to *be* parents.
Never mind expending energy and resources in compiling official lists of "acceptable" and "unacceptable" baby names, or hiring prosaic bureaucrats to determine for the rest of us what's "silly" and what's "stylish". That stuff is nonsense. A child about to be born to parents who are probably already showing their resentment of that unborn child in other ways, is going to need far more substantial protection than a visit from the Name Police.
-- Nanaea
P.S. Andrea? "Zero" ain't such a bad name for a kid if one is fondly remembering Samuel Joel "Zero" Mostel. :)
I'm 100 percent with you, Daividh, about telling guvmint where they can put their dictates. And I wonder whether the issue of what parents choose to name their children may someday come under the same line of fire as the issue of whether or not spanking is to be considered child abuse. (Personally, I am not an advocate of spanking -- unless it's being done between consenting adults.)
I think that any parent in the U.S. and the majority of European countries (I'm ruling out certain cultures here where it's customary to tag an unpleasant name on an infant in order to make the child less attractive to demons) who is seriously contemplating a name like "Shithead" for his/her unborn child is already going to be exhibiting other signs of instability -- signs which shouldn't go too easily unnoticed by the rest of society.
The pregnant woman may be smoking, drinking, or shooting crank. The father-to-be may be abusing the family pet.
My point is this: The abuse -- and potential for abuse -- will have begun long before this child is born and named. Society has to be able to identify toxic parents before they even get to *be* parents.
Never mind expending energy and resources in compiling official lists of "acceptable" and "unacceptable" baby names, or hiring prosaic bureaucrats to determine for the rest of us what's "silly" and what's "stylish". That stuff is nonsense. A child about to be born to parents who are probably already showing their resentment of that unborn child in other ways, is going to need far more substantial protection than a visit from the Name Police.
-- Nanaea
P.S. Andrea? "Zero" ain't such a bad name for a kid if one is fondly remembering Samuel Joel "Zero" Mostel. :)
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I agree with you Davidh and Nan, and...
I don't know of Zero Mostel, although the name sounds familiar.
Well, this is a heavy topic, and it's very enjoyable to discuss it with intelligent people. (That means everyone who's contributed to this date) :)
Andrea
I don't know of Zero Mostel, although the name sounds familiar.
Well, this is a heavy topic, and it's very enjoyable to discuss it with intelligent people. (That means everyone who's contributed to this date) :)
Andrea
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You're a schmartie, yourself, Andrea -- but c'mon. A Broadway babe like you has *got* to know who Zero Mostel was. Does *The Producers* ring a bell? :)
-- Nanaea
-- Nanaea
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"I vas born in Dusseldorf und zat is vy zey call me Rolf!"
1
Is this an impression of Zero Mostel? OK, I'm getting a clue...
LOL!
LOL!
1
Not even close, Andrea. Go rent the danged movie and check him out yourself. The man defies description!ession of Zero Mostel? OK, I'm getting a clue...
rst
rst
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OK.
!
!
1
Also rent "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" while you're at it. Oh yeah, and...
Zero was also the original Tevye in the Broadway production of *Fiddler on the Roof* (long before the movie version came out). He also appears in Woody Allen's *The Front*, as Zero had actually been one of those actors (as portrayed in the movie) blacklisted during the McCarthy Era.
-- Nanaea
Zero was also the original Tevye in the Broadway production of *Fiddler on the Roof* (long before the movie version came out). He also appears in Woody Allen's *The Front*, as Zero had actually been one of those actors (as portrayed in the movie) blacklisted during the McCarthy Era.
-- Nanaea
1
Sounds like I'll recognized him when I see him.
:)
:)
1
I'm not talking about silly names like Fanny and Lulu...
I know a family with two daughters of these names. I'm talking about mental abuse, like the kids named Zero and Shithead.
Check this one out about the kid whose parents named him Adolf Hitler (then their last name), and was pressured by society to change it. They changed it to Winston Churchill (last name), but obviously they were messed up because the kid wound up messed up.
I'm not talking about literary censorship, but of course someone will call it that. I'm talking about obvious mental abuse through naming a child. It's an extremely powerful thing, and while Zelda and I have scorned many a Hugolina namer on haggisbutt, there's a big difference between naming your kid Precious Promise Princess and naming her Flie-Fornication. (Didn't make either of these up.)
I know a family with two daughters of these names. I'm talking about mental abuse, like the kids named Zero and Shithead.
Check this one out about the kid whose parents named him Adolf Hitler (then their last name), and was pressured by society to change it. They changed it to Winston Churchill (last name), but obviously they were messed up because the kid wound up messed up.
I'm not talking about literary censorship, but of course someone will call it that. I'm talking about obvious mental abuse through naming a child. It's an extremely powerful thing, and while Zelda and I have scorned many a Hugolina namer on haggisbutt, there's a big difference between naming your kid Precious Promise Princess and naming her Flie-Fornication. (Didn't make either of these up.)
1
Sometimes it's hard to tell when our Andrea is being serious. n/t ;)
1
Except, Andrea, you might just have the luck to get a semi-literate Civil Servant...
...who insists that it's "not appropriate" to name your child after that blue, Hanna-Barbera cartoon dog, "Huckleberry Hound"... ;)
-- Nanaea
...who insists that it's "not appropriate" to name your child after that blue, Hanna-Barbera cartoon dog, "Huckleberry Hound"... ;)
-- Nanaea
1
BtN assignment for anyone with an interest...
Can anyone here find similar laws, currently in existence and anywhere in the world, which define what parents may or may not name their children? It'd be interesting to see what kind of list we might be able to compile.
-- Nanaea
Can anyone here find similar laws, currently in existence and anywhere in the world, which define what parents may or may not name their children? It'd be interesting to see what kind of list we might be able to compile.
-- Nanaea
1
I don't know if the following is what you are looking for, but here goes:
On Oprah one day a few years ago, this girl and her mom were on the show because the daughter had the longest name in the world at the time, according to The Guiness Book of World Records. Her mom wanted to give her girl an unusual name that nobody could or would ever try to name thier child. So she combine something like 60 names end to end and had to request an additional piece of paper to fit it all on.
The poor girl had to listen to a tape recording of her mother saying her name in order for her to learn it. Oddly enough, she went by the first name in the series, and it was something common like Mary.
Because of this case, the hospital people went to court or something and it is now a law in whatever state she lives in that in naming your child, the name must fit on the origional page of the birth certificate. Details and specifics are lacking, I know, but as I said it was several years ago that I watched this show.
On Oprah one day a few years ago, this girl and her mom were on the show because the daughter had the longest name in the world at the time, according to The Guiness Book of World Records. Her mom wanted to give her girl an unusual name that nobody could or would ever try to name thier child. So she combine something like 60 names end to end and had to request an additional piece of paper to fit it all on.
The poor girl had to listen to a tape recording of her mother saying her name in order for her to learn it. Oddly enough, she went by the first name in the series, and it was something common like Mary.
Because of this case, the hospital people went to court or something and it is now a law in whatever state she lives in that in naming your child, the name must fit on the origional page of the birth certificate. Details and specifics are lacking, I know, but as I said it was several years ago that I watched this show.
1
That's a good one, 'Cole! Can you find an online reference to this story?
Thanks for contributing!
-- Nanaea
Thanks for contributing!
-- Nanaea
1
Countries where the separation of church and state is non-existent or blurred are usual candidates. But I can think of one glaring exception: In France , a country celebrated for its republic, the state has strict regulations over the suitability of names.
I remember a news item of two or three years ago. A French family with the name Renault decided to name their daughter Megane. The authorities intervened, because "Renault Megane" is a French automobile, and they decreed that it would be inappropriate as a human name. I am afraid I wasn't able to find a reference on Google.
I remember a news item of two or three years ago. A French family with the name Renault decided to name their daughter Megane. The authorities intervened, because "Renault Megane" is a French automobile, and they decreed that it would be inappropriate as a human name. I am afraid I wasn't able to find a reference on Google.
1
More...
http://cartalk.cars.com/Mail/Letters/01-31-97/10.html
By the way this is a great site! I used to be a fanatic listener of the Car Talk radio show during my US stint!
http://cartalk.cars.com/Mail/Letters/01-31-97/10.html
By the way this is a great site! I used to be a fanatic listener of the Car Talk radio show during my US stint!
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Hey, Oh Greek One...
Pavlos
If your computer has a place for either speakers or earphones and a relatively good sound card, you can still listen to Car Talk over your computer (and at your convenience). You can return to your former fanaticism if you really want. ;)
Perhaps you already know about it. :shrug:
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
Pavlos
If your computer has a place for either speakers or earphones and a relatively good sound card, you can still listen to Car Talk over your computer (and at your convenience). You can return to your former fanaticism if you really want. ;)
Perhaps you already know about it. :shrug:
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
1
Many thanks for the tip Gaia :) You made my Sunday!
1
The French must be loosening up a bit at last...
They at least seem now to be rescinding those old name laws of theirs. Here's a PROMPT translation from the Legislation section of the French baby-name site: http://meilleursprenoms.com/
The French legislation on the first names France restricted a long time the freedom of choice of the first names. During the Revolution, the French laws limited the range of choice of a first name to those of the calendar and the established list. (Law of Germinal 11th, the year XI). The first names which were not enough conformist had no luck(chance) to be accepted by the civil servants of State.
Law of Germinal 11th the year XI: " the used names in the various calendars, and those of the celebrities in the ancient(former) history can be only received, as first names, on state registers intended to notice the birth of the children; and it is forbidden to the public officers to admit it no other one in their acts. "
The ministerial Instruction of April 12th, 1966 marks the first stage towards the opening. This last one indeed admitted that " the force of the custom, in the material(subject), appreciably widened the limits initially assigned to the admissibility of the first names by the literal prescriptions of the law of Germinal 11th the year XI. "
The ministerial Instruction of April 12th, 1966 thus widens the directory of acceptable first names in first names pulled(fired) by the mythology, the régionnaux first names, the compound first names, tolerating even in certain cases diminutives and variations.
The order of the Court of Appeal of June 10th, 1981 follows close by the ministerial Instruction of April 12th, 1966 by deciding that " the relatives(parents) can notably choose as first names, under the general reserve that in interest of the child they are considered ridiculous, the used names in the various calendars and, while there is no official list of the authorized first names, he(it) does not there take place to require(demand) that the called calendar emanates from an official authority. "
But it is since 1993, with the Article 57 of the Civil code, (Titre II, chapter), that the law most considerably softened its legislation, guaranteeing virtually the acceptability of any first name.
They at least seem now to be rescinding those old name laws of theirs. Here's a PROMPT translation from the Legislation section of the French baby-name site: http://meilleursprenoms.com/
The French legislation on the first names France restricted a long time the freedom of choice of the first names. During the Revolution, the French laws limited the range of choice of a first name to those of the calendar and the established list. (Law of Germinal 11th, the year XI). The first names which were not enough conformist had no luck(chance) to be accepted by the civil servants of State.
Law of Germinal 11th the year XI: " the used names in the various calendars, and those of the celebrities in the ancient(former) history can be only received, as first names, on state registers intended to notice the birth of the children; and it is forbidden to the public officers to admit it no other one in their acts. "
The ministerial Instruction of April 12th, 1966 marks the first stage towards the opening. This last one indeed admitted that " the force of the custom, in the material(subject), appreciably widened the limits initially assigned to the admissibility of the first names by the literal prescriptions of the law of Germinal 11th the year XI. "
The ministerial Instruction of April 12th, 1966 thus widens the directory of acceptable first names in first names pulled(fired) by the mythology, the régionnaux first names, the compound first names, tolerating even in certain cases diminutives and variations.
The order of the Court of Appeal of June 10th, 1981 follows close by the ministerial Instruction of April 12th, 1966 by deciding that " the relatives(parents) can notably choose as first names, under the general reserve that in interest of the child they are considered ridiculous, the used names in the various calendars and, while there is no official list of the authorized first names, he(it) does not there take place to require(demand) that the called calendar emanates from an official authority. "
But it is since 1993, with the Article 57 of the Civil code, (Titre II, chapter), that the law most considerably softened its legislation, guaranteeing virtually the acceptability of any first name.
1
Cool :)
1