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Help[Facts] Greek Pronounciation
HOw do you pronounce Klytie (with two little dots over the e)? It looks like a pretty name, but the site doesn't tell how to prn it. Is it KLY- tee-ay? Thanks! :)
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Replies
The "trema" over the e in this case simply marks that the previous i makes a sylabble. Hence, there are three sylables in this word: Kly-ti-e. Without the trema, there could be two sylables: Kly-tie.
There are no problems with the pronounciation of consonants, I hope.
Spanish vowels, e.g., are very close to Greek vowels.
"Y" (ypsilon) is now pronounced as "ee" (it, see). In classic Greek, "Y" was pronounced as German "fuenf" (five) or French "tu" (thou). This maked Romans to borrow that letter in this shape for that vowel. In pre-classic Greek, "Y" was heard as "oo" (put, good, moon). At those times, Romans that letter with the shapes "U/V". Romans did not distinguish "U" and "V".
"I" (iota) has always been pronounced as "ee" (it, see). In this position without the trema over the next vowel, it would not make a syllable, however.
There are two Greek letters, E (epsilon and H (eta). In ancient times, epsilon was a short e and eta was a long e. Confusingly, both epsilon and eta are spelled with "e" in Roman alphabet. Now, epsilon is pronounced as "e" (bed, any, every) and iota is pronounced as "ee" (it, see).
In this case, however, there is no confusion: the final e is eta and it can be "ee" according to the new Greek pronunciation. If you wish to follow the ancient pronunciation, use something like the German e in "zehn" (10).
There are no problems with the pronounciation of consonants, I hope.
Spanish vowels, e.g., are very close to Greek vowels.
"Y" (ypsilon) is now pronounced as "ee" (it, see). In classic Greek, "Y" was pronounced as German "fuenf" (five) or French "tu" (thou). This maked Romans to borrow that letter in this shape for that vowel. In pre-classic Greek, "Y" was heard as "oo" (put, good, moon). At those times, Romans that letter with the shapes "U/V". Romans did not distinguish "U" and "V".
"I" (iota) has always been pronounced as "ee" (it, see). In this position without the trema over the next vowel, it would not make a syllable, however.
There are two Greek letters, E (epsilon and H (eta). In ancient times, epsilon was a short e and eta was a long e. Confusingly, both epsilon and eta are spelled with "e" in Roman alphabet. Now, epsilon is pronounced as "e" (bed, any, every) and iota is pronounced as "ee" (it, see).
In this case, however, there is no confusion: the final e is eta and it can be "ee" according to the new Greek pronunciation. If you wish to follow the ancient pronunciation, use something like the German e in "zehn" (10).
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Ahem.....
I beg to disagree on some of your points, Christo.
The accent you suggest as "ancient Greek" is in fact the so-called "Erasmian accent," i.e. a scholarly attempt to reproduce ancient speech devised by Erasmus a.k.a. Desiderius (1469-1536), a Dutch scholar. This invented accent has a very strong latin pitch to it, as some of the Greek letters (eg. theta, delta, gamma) are very hard to pronounced by most western Europeans. Erasmus
A comparison between the contemporary Greek accent and the artificial Erasmian accent can be found here: http://www.greek-language.com/alphabet/.
What the true accent of classical Athens (let alone Sparta, Crete, Macedonia, etc) was cannot even be a matter of speculation! Think of an English language scholar in 1500 years trying to reconstruct what English sounds like, when there are today diverging accents such as Oxbridge, Cockney, South African, Noo Yawk and New Joysey, Southern, Jive/Ebonic, and DownUnderish!
There is however one universally accepted fact: Greek words that begin with a consonant and have a "rough breathing" (daseia) originally has a slight "h" or "s" hissing to them, mostly lost in modern Greek. This is why the Greek word for water, YDOR, became HYDOR in Latin (as in hyrdoelectric), YPER became HYPER or SUPER, EXIS became SEXUS and so forth.
My personal bias is that it is more correct to read classical texts using use the contemporary Greek pronounciation rather than an accent devised by a well-meaning Dutch scholar. After all, Greek is a living language for several millennia, that has evolved in a pretty linear fashion. It never had to be resurrected from scratch, as in the case of Hebrew. Why? Pretty much for the same reason that we would rather Chaucer today using a contemporary English accent rather than some devised Pythonesque manner.
I beg to disagree on some of your points, Christo.
The accent you suggest as "ancient Greek" is in fact the so-called "Erasmian accent," i.e. a scholarly attempt to reproduce ancient speech devised by Erasmus a.k.a. Desiderius (1469-1536), a Dutch scholar. This invented accent has a very strong latin pitch to it, as some of the Greek letters (eg. theta, delta, gamma) are very hard to pronounced by most western Europeans. Erasmus
A comparison between the contemporary Greek accent and the artificial Erasmian accent can be found here: http://www.greek-language.com/alphabet/.
What the true accent of classical Athens (let alone Sparta, Crete, Macedonia, etc) was cannot even be a matter of speculation! Think of an English language scholar in 1500 years trying to reconstruct what English sounds like, when there are today diverging accents such as Oxbridge, Cockney, South African, Noo Yawk and New Joysey, Southern, Jive/Ebonic, and DownUnderish!
There is however one universally accepted fact: Greek words that begin with a consonant and have a "rough breathing" (daseia) originally has a slight "h" or "s" hissing to them, mostly lost in modern Greek. This is why the Greek word for water, YDOR, became HYDOR in Latin (as in hyrdoelectric), YPER became HYPER or SUPER, EXIS became SEXUS and so forth.
My personal bias is that it is more correct to read classical texts using use the contemporary Greek pronounciation rather than an accent devised by a well-meaning Dutch scholar. After all, Greek is a living language for several millennia, that has evolved in a pretty linear fashion. It never had to be resurrected from scratch, as in the case of Hebrew. Why? Pretty much for the same reason that we would rather Chaucer today using a contemporary English accent rather than some devised Pythonesque manner.
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Hi, Pavlos.
[I apologize to others I had to send my answered to Pavlos via e-mail.]
You wrote: The accent you suggest as "ancient Greek" is in fact the so-called "Erasmian accent," i.e. a scholarly attempt to reproduce ancient speech devised by Erasmus a.k.a. Desiderius (1469-1536), a Dutch scholar.
First, the new Greek accent is one of my suggestions, too. It is more familiar to me, personally, too. I cannot ignore other accents, however.
Next, the so-called "Erasmian accent" is in fact very close to the ancient Greek. The reconstruction is reliable enough.
You wrote: This invented accent has a very strong latin pitch to it, as some of the Greek letters (eg. theta, delta, gamma) are very hard to pronounced by most western Europeans.
I cannot understand you very well. The so-called "Erasmian accent" is not just invented. Rather, it is a reliable reconstruction. Latin has been used in that reconstruction. It would be so successful without Latin evidences. The other source for that reconstruction is the traditional Greek spelling.
I think that the new pronunciation of theta, delta, gamma is too hard for most Europeans. The new gamma is approachable by Greeks only. People speaking French, Italian, German, Slavic are not capable to the new delta and theta. In contrast, the Erasmian accent is familiar to all.
You wrote: What the true accent of classical Athens (let alone Sparta, Crete, Macedonia, etc) was cannot even be a matter of speculation! Think of an English language scholar in 1500 years trying to reconstruct what English sounds like, when there are today diverging accents such as Oxbridge, Cockney, South African, Noo Yawk and New Joysey, Southern, Jive/Ebonic, and DownUnderish!
I cannot agree here. Each language exists as a set of dialects. Even now, the new Greek is a set of dialects. So is English now (consider British, Australian, several Americans accents). So was English at Chaucer's time. So was Greek at Classic times.
Nevertheless, we can say which accent is now English and which is not. We can say which accent is Greek and which is not. Similarly, we definitely can say which accent was Greek at ancient times and which was not. For instance, at ancient times (B.C.), an accent without respect to the length of vowels definitely was not Greek.
[I apologize to others I had to send my answered to Pavlos via e-mail.]
You wrote: The accent you suggest as "ancient Greek" is in fact the so-called "Erasmian accent," i.e. a scholarly attempt to reproduce ancient speech devised by Erasmus a.k.a. Desiderius (1469-1536), a Dutch scholar.
First, the new Greek accent is one of my suggestions, too. It is more familiar to me, personally, too. I cannot ignore other accents, however.
Next, the so-called "Erasmian accent" is in fact very close to the ancient Greek. The reconstruction is reliable enough.
You wrote: This invented accent has a very strong latin pitch to it, as some of the Greek letters (eg. theta, delta, gamma) are very hard to pronounced by most western Europeans.
I cannot understand you very well. The so-called "Erasmian accent" is not just invented. Rather, it is a reliable reconstruction. Latin has been used in that reconstruction. It would be so successful without Latin evidences. The other source for that reconstruction is the traditional Greek spelling.
I think that the new pronunciation of theta, delta, gamma is too hard for most Europeans. The new gamma is approachable by Greeks only. People speaking French, Italian, German, Slavic are not capable to the new delta and theta. In contrast, the Erasmian accent is familiar to all.
You wrote: What the true accent of classical Athens (let alone Sparta, Crete, Macedonia, etc) was cannot even be a matter of speculation! Think of an English language scholar in 1500 years trying to reconstruct what English sounds like, when there are today diverging accents such as Oxbridge, Cockney, South African, Noo Yawk and New Joysey, Southern, Jive/Ebonic, and DownUnderish!
I cannot agree here. Each language exists as a set of dialects. Even now, the new Greek is a set of dialects. So is English now (consider British, Australian, several Americans accents). So was English at Chaucer's time. So was Greek at Classic times.
Nevertheless, we can say which accent is now English and which is not. We can say which accent is Greek and which is not. Similarly, we definitely can say which accent was Greek at ancient times and which was not. For instance, at ancient times (B.C.), an accent without respect to the length of vowels definitely was not Greek.
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Can you please tell me the exact pronunciation of the greek alphabet at the ancent times and describe the way you think they chainged. euxaristo kai perimeno.
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PS
The site below most accurately presents the Erasmian pronounciation:
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/BA/pronunciation.html
The site below most accurately presents the Erasmian pronounciation:
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/BA/pronunciation.html
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For the first time in onomastic history, and direct from the horse's mouth: the compleat Klyt- onomatology, including meanings and their correct pronounciation! (Mike C check it out!)
There are three familites of female names starting with the sound KLIT:
1) *Klyt-* all are derived from "klytos" which means "famous"
2) *Klet-* all are derived from "kletos" which means "he who is summoned or called upon"
3) *Kleit-* all are derived from "kleos" which means "glory"
Here are some examples:
*Klytia* - (klit-EE-ah)
*Klytie* - (klit-EE-ee)
The above names are essentially the same name of the Oceanic nymph who was transformed by the god Helios into a sunflower. Klytia is far more commonly found in the literature.
*Klyto* - (klit-TOH)
*Klyte* - (klit-TEE)
*Klyta* - (KLIT-ah)
*Klytaimnestra* (or, CLYTEMNESTRA) - derived from "klytos" which means "famous" and "medomai" which means "to think, plan, conspire". She was Agamennon's devious wife. (klit-em-KNEE-strah)
*Kleto* - (klit-TOH)
*Kletarista* - (klit-ar-EE-stah)- derived from "klet" and "aristos" which means superior, i.e., "she who called upon to be superior"
*Kleito* - (klit-TOH)
*Kleita* - (KLIT-ah)
*Kleitaro* - (klit-ar-OH)
*Kleitagora* from "kleit-" and "agoreuo" (to aggress a forum), i.e., "she who is a damn good speaker" - (klit-ah-GORE-ah)
*Kleirandra* - from "kleit-" and "andreia" (bravery) i.e. "she who is a gloriously brave"(klit-AND-rah)
"Kleitarete* - from "kleit-" and "arete" (virtue) i.e. "she who is a gloriously virtuous" (klit-ah-RETT-ee)
*Kleitomacha* - from "kleit-" and "mache" (battle) i.e. "she who is a glorious in battle" (klit-oh-MACH-ah)- MACH pronounced like Scotty would pronounce "loch".
*Kleite* - (KLIT-ee)
*Kleitia* - (klit-TEE-ah)
*Kleitopolis* - from "kleit" and "polis" (city state) i.e. "she who glorifies our city" (klit-OP-olis)
O.K. this brinds us to the inevitable question (nudge nudge wink wink). What is the origin of clitoris (kleitoris, in Greek)? Well this is subject to debate. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, it is derived from "kleio" (meaning, "to shut"). In my book, it is derived from "kleio-
There are three familites of female names starting with the sound KLIT:
1) *Klyt-* all are derived from "klytos" which means "famous"
2) *Klet-* all are derived from "kletos" which means "he who is summoned or called upon"
3) *Kleit-* all are derived from "kleos" which means "glory"
Here are some examples:
*Klytia* - (klit-EE-ah)
*Klytie* - (klit-EE-ee)
The above names are essentially the same name of the Oceanic nymph who was transformed by the god Helios into a sunflower. Klytia is far more commonly found in the literature.
*Klyto* - (klit-TOH)
*Klyte* - (klit-TEE)
*Klyta* - (KLIT-ah)
*Klytaimnestra* (or, CLYTEMNESTRA) - derived from "klytos" which means "famous" and "medomai" which means "to think, plan, conspire". She was Agamennon's devious wife. (klit-em-KNEE-strah)
*Kleto* - (klit-TOH)
*Kletarista* - (klit-ar-EE-stah)- derived from "klet" and "aristos" which means superior, i.e., "she who called upon to be superior"
*Kleito* - (klit-TOH)
*Kleita* - (KLIT-ah)
*Kleitaro* - (klit-ar-OH)
*Kleitagora* from "kleit-" and "agoreuo" (to aggress a forum), i.e., "she who is a damn good speaker" - (klit-ah-GORE-ah)
*Kleirandra* - from "kleit-" and "andreia" (bravery) i.e. "she who is a gloriously brave"(klit-AND-rah)
"Kleitarete* - from "kleit-" and "arete" (virtue) i.e. "she who is a gloriously virtuous" (klit-ah-RETT-ee)
*Kleitomacha* - from "kleit-" and "mache" (battle) i.e. "she who is a glorious in battle" (klit-oh-MACH-ah)- MACH pronounced like Scotty would pronounce "loch".
*Kleite* - (KLIT-ee)
*Kleitia* - (klit-TEE-ah)
*Kleitopolis* - from "kleit" and "polis" (city state) i.e. "she who glorifies our city" (klit-OP-olis)
O.K. this brinds us to the inevitable question (nudge nudge wink wink). What is the origin of clitoris (kleitoris, in Greek)? Well this is subject to debate. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, it is derived from "kleio" (meaning, "to shut"). In my book, it is derived from "kleio-
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...continuation of truncated message
In my book, it may well be derived from "kleit-" (meaning glory), a tribute to the mother goddess Gaia. But again, this is a highly partial longshot guess :P
In my book, it may well be derived from "kleit-" (meaning glory), a tribute to the mother goddess Gaia. But again, this is a highly partial longshot guess :P
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Er, why would the "y" be pronounced "u"? That's just... bizarre.
The pronounciation is actually more like "klee-TEE-eh", the 'eh' being pronounced the same way as the e in 'men' or 'pet'. At least, that's how a Greek would pronounce it.
The pronounciation is actually more like "klee-TEE-eh", the 'eh' being pronounced the same way as the e in 'men' or 'pet'. At least, that's how a Greek would pronounce it.
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KLUH-tay?
That it?
That it?
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Kluh-tyeh or kluh-tee-eh, in fact.
eh like "men", "pet"...
I think I remember having been told y gives u in Greek. Like "gyne", "woman", being said "guh-neh". But maybe it's only for Ancient Greek... I didn't learn it(I chose Latin at school), but I can ask my mom. Do you want me to ask her?
eh like "men", "pet"...
I think I remember having been told y gives u in Greek. Like "gyne", "woman", being said "guh-neh". But maybe it's only for Ancient Greek... I didn't learn it(I chose Latin at school), but I can ask my mom. Do you want me to ask her?
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No need, I've already asked mine :)
I can tell you right off the bat that 'y' does not give 'u' in Greek. It actually is an 'ee' sound. Where people get confused is that the letter 'Y' is the upper case and 'u' is the lower case, but because it looks like an English 'u' people incorrectly pronounce it as such.
I can tell you right off the bat that 'y' does not give 'u' in Greek. It actually is an 'ee' sound. Where people get confused is that the letter 'Y' is the upper case and 'u' is the lower case, but because it looks like an English 'u' people incorrectly pronounce it as such.
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In Ancient Greek the Y was pronounced like the German Ü (U umlaut) or the French U like in "sur"; this is at least what they teach in Germany (maybe the Germans just love their umlaut). It's just the OY (omikron-ypsilon) that was pronounced like OO.
In modern Greek I understand there are lots of EE-sounds around, all the Es (epsilon) and Äs (Eta), the Is (iota) anyway and also the Ys (ypsilon) are pronounced that way. I got the impression that due to all those EE-sounds modern Greek sounds like everybody was smiling all the time, but maybe the Greeks are just such friendly people.
Andy ;—)
In modern Greek I understand there are lots of EE-sounds around, all the Es (epsilon) and Äs (Eta), the Is (iota) anyway and also the Ys (ypsilon) are pronounced that way. I got the impression that due to all those EE-sounds modern Greek sounds like everybody was smiling all the time, but maybe the Greeks are just such friendly people.
Andy ;—)
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