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Help[Facts] Re: Alternate origin for Darlene
in reply to a message by Dorchadas
In the American case, that is possible.
However, there were also records that are not American, like in Hungary, Netherlands, England and Germany itself, going all the way back to the 1500s. I suppose they could have been mistranscriptions of Karolina in the German and Hungarian case. I am guessing that maybe Darlene is actually an old diminutive form of Dorothy and maybe onomasts were just assuming it was more modern and based on "darling."
I have also seen Direlyne (England, cir. 1580s), Diwerlina (in the Netherlands, 1700s), Doroline (England, Netherlands), Dorolina (Italy, Spain) and Darlene itself listed in 2 records in 16th-century Hungary.
However, there were also records that are not American, like in Hungary, Netherlands, England and Germany itself, going all the way back to the 1500s. I suppose they could have been mistranscriptions of Karolina in the German and Hungarian case. I am guessing that maybe Darlene is actually an old diminutive form of Dorothy and maybe onomasts were just assuming it was more modern and based on "darling."
I have also seen Direlyne (England, cir. 1580s), Diwerlina (in the Netherlands, 1700s), Doroline (England, Netherlands), Dorolina (Italy, Spain) and Darlene itself listed in 2 records in 16th-century Hungary.
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Even if Darlene appears in much older records, I think it would be a stretch for the 16th-c. Hungarian Darlene to be related to modern American Darlene.
US Social Security records begin in 1880, and the first instances of any similar-sounding names are Arlene and Charlene in 1888, followed by Carlene (1895), Darlene (1896), and Marlene (1904). Arlene was by far the most common of these until the 1930s, when it was surpassed by Marlene. Darlene reached its peak in the 1950s.
This being so, it seems likely to me that American Darlene was in fact an invention based on sounds that were already becoming popular. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it wasn't usual for people to look hundreds of years back into their family trees to find obscure baby names. There is a chance it could have happened, of course, but that could only account for a tiny handful of instances of a name like Darlene. I'd also expect that if this were the case, Darlene would have appeared earlier and more often (as the "original" -arlene name) than it did.
US Social Security records begin in 1880, and the first instances of any similar-sounding names are Arlene and Charlene in 1888, followed by Carlene (1895), Darlene (1896), and Marlene (1904). Arlene was by far the most common of these until the 1930s, when it was surpassed by Marlene. Darlene reached its peak in the 1950s.
This being so, it seems likely to me that American Darlene was in fact an invention based on sounds that were already becoming popular. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it wasn't usual for people to look hundreds of years back into their family trees to find obscure baby names. There is a chance it could have happened, of course, but that could only account for a tiny handful of instances of a name like Darlene. I'd also expect that if this were the case, Darlene would have appeared earlier and more often (as the "original" -arlene name) than it did.
This message was edited 3/4/2019, 6:55 AM
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I guess I view things far differently from you. I don't find any of these instances a stretch.
The Hungarian Darlene is an early example, I wasn't saying it was the source of the name, but obviously there is enough evidence to me to suggest that Darlene has some sort of history outside the US long before it became popular. Plus, I found a Direlyne from 1580s England. Like I said, there are various other very similar forms that are obviously seem related. Doroline pops up (again, not a stretch at all when it comes to vowel shift in different languages). There is also Darlina, Darlen, Dorlen, Diewerlina, etc.
And even the Hungarian origin is not a stretch especially when you had a large enough number of former Hungarian mercenaries settling in the U.S after the Revolution, mainly in the Carolinas. Plus, there were various other examples I found, not just Hungary, mainly Germany, Netherlands and England. I doubt it is Hungarian in origin, I would suspect an obscure Low German or German origin. There were Germans who lived in what is now Hungary for centuries. The Hungarian examples had Magyar surnames, but there was definitely cultural exchange going on between ethnic Hungarians and Germans.
"In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it wasn't usual for people to look hundreds of years back into their family trees to find obscure baby names. There is a chance it could have happened, of course, but that could only account for a tiny handful of instances."
As for people looking at old records to use names, I never said that is how Darlene became popular. I would suspect more word of mouth, but your statement seems like a personal observation and not a fact. I don't know if people looked at family records or not back then, but I would suspect it may have been more common than you believe since people kept family bibles. I would assume it was a more common source of baby names than it is now. You also need to take word of mouth into account. They may have known their great-grandmother had such and such a name, but not how to properly spell it, so yes, you would absolutely get corrupted offshoots.
The Hungarian Darlene is an early example, I wasn't saying it was the source of the name, but obviously there is enough evidence to me to suggest that Darlene has some sort of history outside the US long before it became popular. Plus, I found a Direlyne from 1580s England. Like I said, there are various other very similar forms that are obviously seem related. Doroline pops up (again, not a stretch at all when it comes to vowel shift in different languages). There is also Darlina, Darlen, Dorlen, Diewerlina, etc.
And even the Hungarian origin is not a stretch especially when you had a large enough number of former Hungarian mercenaries settling in the U.S after the Revolution, mainly in the Carolinas. Plus, there were various other examples I found, not just Hungary, mainly Germany, Netherlands and England. I doubt it is Hungarian in origin, I would suspect an obscure Low German or German origin. There were Germans who lived in what is now Hungary for centuries. The Hungarian examples had Magyar surnames, but there was definitely cultural exchange going on between ethnic Hungarians and Germans.
"In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it wasn't usual for people to look hundreds of years back into their family trees to find obscure baby names. There is a chance it could have happened, of course, but that could only account for a tiny handful of instances."
As for people looking at old records to use names, I never said that is how Darlene became popular. I would suspect more word of mouth, but your statement seems like a personal observation and not a fact. I don't know if people looked at family records or not back then, but I would suspect it may have been more common than you believe since people kept family bibles. I would assume it was a more common source of baby names than it is now. You also need to take word of mouth into account. They may have known their great-grandmother had such and such a name, but not how to properly spell it, so yes, you would absolutely get corrupted offshoots.
This message was edited 3/4/2019, 11:36 AM
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Of course people in the late 19th century named children for their own parents and grandparents just as they do today, but I don't see evidence that they were looking back hundreds of years for baby names (unlikely that a family Bible would have lasted so long, anyway!) Two sets of my great-grandparents emigrated from Germany in the 1880s. My grandmother, who was born in 1896, told me that most German immigrants were eager to shed the "old country" language and names, and fit in with English-speaking society. Her parents, Friedrich and Wilhelmina, used their own names for their children but in English versions, Fred and Minnie (my grandmother). They also had a son Charlie who was named for his grandfather, Karl.
I'm not trying to argue with you at all. I believe that you found instances of Darlene and similar names in old records, I just think it unlikely that all of a sudden in the 1890s parents rediscovered those names and somehow altered them all to the same form, Darlene. The fact that Arlene was common for over a decade before Darlene appears in the data is telling to me, as is the existence of a number of other rhyming names like Carlene, Charlene, as well as the fact that there are no other names in the least like Darlene in the data at this time (no Darline, or Doroline, or Darlen, etc., as you would expect if parents were resurrecting the earlier names).
I really believe it is much more likely that the ancient Darlene is unrelated to the modern Darlene.
I'm not trying to argue with you at all. I believe that you found instances of Darlene and similar names in old records, I just think it unlikely that all of a sudden in the 1890s parents rediscovered those names and somehow altered them all to the same form, Darlene. The fact that Arlene was common for over a decade before Darlene appears in the data is telling to me, as is the existence of a number of other rhyming names like Carlene, Charlene, as well as the fact that there are no other names in the least like Darlene in the data at this time (no Darline, or Doroline, or Darlen, etc., as you would expect if parents were resurrecting the earlier names).
I really believe it is much more likely that the ancient Darlene is unrelated to the modern Darlene.
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I am not arguing that names certainly become popular for various reasons. There is however a big difference between origin and usage. So while Carlene and Arlene may have helped make it popular, that doesn't necessarily negate that Darlene may have an older origin.
It isn't hundreds of years, it is really late 1700s and early 1800s it starts to appear, earliest I could find were 1500s, and I wasn't suggesting people were looking at old records. All it takes is a book, a song, (a movie in later centuries), or even a few women in a small area to have the name and other people hear it, like the sound of it, and start using it on their children for their own reasons.
Kayla became very popular in the US by non-Jews due to a soap opera but the fact of the matter is that it existed as a traditional Yiddish female name prior to that for centuries. It still does not change the origin of the name. People may have different reasons of using a name later on; people may use a name due to a false or incorrect etymology.
This is the same case with Jessica. Its earlier use was specific to the Anglo-Norman Jewish community, yet became very popular in the 1980s by non-Jews centuries later. Not even Shakespeare helped resurrect it among his contemporaries. Maybe because a lot of parents assumed it was a feminine form of Jessie and Jessie/Jesse was a somewhat common male counterpart at the time. It still doesn't change the fact that Jessica had a much older history.
Reasons behind the usage of names morphs throughout the centuries.
"Two sets of my great-grandparents emigrated from Germany in the 1880s. My grandmother, who was born in 1896, told me that most German immigrants were eager to shed the "old country" language and names, and fit in with English-speaking society."
It isn't hundreds of years, it is really late 1700s and early 1800s it starts to appear, earliest I could find were 1500s, and I wasn't suggesting people were looking at old records. All it takes is a book, a song, (a movie in later centuries), or even a few women in a small area to have the name and other people hear it, like the sound of it, and start using it on their children for their own reasons.
Kayla became very popular in the US by non-Jews due to a soap opera but the fact of the matter is that it existed as a traditional Yiddish female name prior to that for centuries. It still does not change the origin of the name. People may have different reasons of using a name later on; people may use a name due to a false or incorrect etymology.
This is the same case with Jessica. Its earlier use was specific to the Anglo-Norman Jewish community, yet became very popular in the 1980s by non-Jews centuries later. Not even Shakespeare helped resurrect it among his contemporaries. Maybe because a lot of parents assumed it was a feminine form of Jessie and Jessie/Jesse was a somewhat common male counterpart at the time. It still doesn't change the fact that Jessica had a much older history.
Reasons behind the usage of names morphs throughout the centuries.
"Two sets of my great-grandparents emigrated from Germany in the 1880s. My grandmother, who was born in 1896, told me that most German immigrants were eager to shed the "old country" language and names, and fit in with English-speaking society."
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I don't find it a stretch at all, especially when it comes to vowel shifts between some dialects and languages. Beside, Doroline is just one similar example I found. You did not take Direlyne into account, Diewerline, Derlen, Derlene etc.
This message was edited 3/4/2019, 11:33 AM
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These vowel sounds don't shift to |a| though, especially as pronounced in Darlene. if anything Darlene may shift to Dorline (in accents where a is more of a back vowel like o) or Derline (leveling influenced by the i in the following syllable), but not the other way round. That's just not how sound-shifting works. Sound-shifting has directionality, and follows rules - levelling, breaking, diphthongisation, monophthongisation, raising and lowering (all under certain conditions). Some of the citations you give from the 18th C and earlier could plausibly be derived from Darlene, if Darlene were attested earlier, but Darlene cannot be derived from them.
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