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Help[Facts] Re: REF for Andy
in reply to a message by SHANNON
"...say if th'hadst rather hear it from our mouths, Or from our masters.." - macbeth
...Bare with me, maybe we can solve this.....
__________________________________
In the book(s):
'let's name the baby' (C.R. Gibson company 1978) Vanessa "butterfly"
The 1st reference was from 'What to name the baby: a treasury' by Evelyn Wells does say "from the greek phanes, ....vanessa was one of the loves of dean swift"
The Phanessa is under greek, vanna under italian, but not for (vania) under russian -is a form of jane/john. This book is copyright 1946.
National Audubon socity field guide to NA butterflies, American painted lady "hunter's butterfly and virginia lady" Vanessa virginaiensis former V.huntera (+vanessa anabella, atalanta, etc)....
Websters' unabridged 20thc - Vanessa .n. [gr phanes an orphic (mystic) divinity]
Funk & Wagnalls new desk std diction. copy. 1948 "-phane, -phany -- combining form from greek phaneros, visible"
+ (ph) pronounced (f) the phenician (vau), through the hebrew (vau),(v )also phenician(vau) into greek upsilon (and we know latin (v) pronounced (w)-foot note), (v) interchangeible with (u) [maybe vaunessa/vanessa ??]
***fun fact
Merriam-webster english usage
au = ou, v = ve in sound
{THIS in mind}Known as a/an
'ETYMOLOGICAL FALLACY'
states "is a term used by philologists and linguists to describe the insistence that a word in present day english derivied from a foreign (and especially greek or latin) word must have the same meaning as the foreign word or must have it's meaning limited in some way....one thing to remember when you read or hear someone insisting that an english word must have a certain meaning because of its' latin or greek roots is that these insisters apply their etmologies very selectively ....", Ex:"...DECEMBER used for the 12th month, when latin root means 'ten', manure being used as a noun meaning 'dung' originally a verb meaning 'to work (land) by hand' " - Merriam-webster english usage
Latin TXBK states vanus/Vana = vain -- esse = sum = to be
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THIS MIGHT be a Wild goose chase and the trans- of ES- VAN- is in the wimsy, Perhaps a butterfly Lover named Their daughter for its' beauty and it caught on.
LET ME know if this is the wrong direction.?
ps
PHANESSA could be used as a gaelic form, for the lack of words that start with V,W,Y among others........
***This bk also has extra info like many dictionaries of the desk std, U nited S tates P ostal R ates, 1st class 3cent per oz, single postcard 1cent, SD fee 1st class up to 2lb 15cents over 2lb & not more than 10lb 25cents..;)
...Bare with me, maybe we can solve this.....
__________________________________
In the book(s):
'let's name the baby' (C.R. Gibson company 1978) Vanessa "butterfly"
The 1st reference was from 'What to name the baby: a treasury' by Evelyn Wells does say "from the greek phanes, ....vanessa was one of the loves of dean swift"
The Phanessa is under greek, vanna under italian, but not for (vania) under russian -is a form of jane/john. This book is copyright 1946.
National Audubon socity field guide to NA butterflies, American painted lady "hunter's butterfly and virginia lady" Vanessa virginaiensis former V.huntera (+vanessa anabella, atalanta, etc)....
Websters' unabridged 20thc - Vanessa .n. [gr phanes an orphic (mystic) divinity]
Funk & Wagnalls new desk std diction. copy. 1948 "-phane, -phany -- combining form from greek phaneros, visible"
+ (ph) pronounced (f) the phenician (vau), through the hebrew (vau),(v )also phenician(vau) into greek upsilon (and we know latin (v) pronounced (w)-foot note), (v) interchangeible with (u) [maybe vaunessa/vanessa ??]
***fun fact
Merriam-webster english usage
au = ou, v = ve in sound
{THIS in mind}Known as a/an
'ETYMOLOGICAL FALLACY'
states "is a term used by philologists and linguists to describe the insistence that a word in present day english derivied from a foreign (and especially greek or latin) word must have the same meaning as the foreign word or must have it's meaning limited in some way....one thing to remember when you read or hear someone insisting that an english word must have a certain meaning because of its' latin or greek roots is that these insisters apply their etmologies very selectively ....", Ex:"...DECEMBER used for the 12th month, when latin root means 'ten', manure being used as a noun meaning 'dung' originally a verb meaning 'to work (land) by hand' " - Merriam-webster english usage
Latin TXBK states vanus/Vana = vain -- esse = sum = to be
__________________________________
THIS MIGHT be a Wild goose chase and the trans- of ES- VAN- is in the wimsy, Perhaps a butterfly Lover named Their daughter for its' beauty and it caught on.
LET ME know if this is the wrong direction.?
ps
PHANESSA could be used as a gaelic form, for the lack of words that start with V,W,Y among others........
***This bk also has extra info like many dictionaries of the desk std, U nited S tates P ostal R ates, 1st class 3cent per oz, single postcard 1cent, SD fee 1st class up to 2lb 15cents over 2lb & not more than 10lb 25cents..;)
1
Replies
Thank you for this wave of information! I'll have to study it a little closer as soon as I'm on my feet again. Shakespeare really struck me …
I don't know any of the name books you mention, but maybe I'll be able to get hold of them some time. I've got two American name books and they are no good, but maybe I just got the wrong books. As a general rule I found: the less baby faces with big grins on the cover, the more reliable the book. So maybe you just check the cover …
What I'll try to check: Was VANESSA used as the name for the butterfly before Swift's poem? What do we actually know about that goddess and what happened to her name?
I like your quotation about "etymological fallacy". Now in the case of given names things are a bit more complicated. Philologists working on names do not so much ask about the etymological background but rather about the name giving motive. And sometimes this has little to do with scientific explanations given from today's point of view. Sometimes we talk about "folk etymology" with a condescending smile on our faces. But we can't say that people at a time misunderstood a certain name, they understood it in a different way. You'll find a lot of this in the Hebrew bible: the original meaning of JACOB for instance is "God protects", others say it's from an Ethiopian word meaning "Steinhuhn" ("rock chicken" or something like that). But at one point it was comprehended as "holding the heel" or "sneaking behind the heels" (> to betray) and there is a good story to this. From then on almost everybody who named his child JACOB thought of JACOB the betraying heelholder (if he thought of anything at all).
Now what is the "better" meaning? What is more original? And where does "etymological fallacy" come in? But on this board, I understand, any piece of information is of interest, if it helps to get the history of a name straight. And this is why I always try to ask: what was first? What happened later and why was this? A lot of times people misunderstood a name or a part of it and thus changed it to what they thought made more sense. To me this is the most interesting part of chasing wild geese.
I don't know any of the name books you mention, but maybe I'll be able to get hold of them some time. I've got two American name books and they are no good, but maybe I just got the wrong books. As a general rule I found: the less baby faces with big grins on the cover, the more reliable the book. So maybe you just check the cover …
What I'll try to check: Was VANESSA used as the name for the butterfly before Swift's poem? What do we actually know about that goddess and what happened to her name?
I like your quotation about "etymological fallacy". Now in the case of given names things are a bit more complicated. Philologists working on names do not so much ask about the etymological background but rather about the name giving motive. And sometimes this has little to do with scientific explanations given from today's point of view. Sometimes we talk about "folk etymology" with a condescending smile on our faces. But we can't say that people at a time misunderstood a certain name, they understood it in a different way. You'll find a lot of this in the Hebrew bible: the original meaning of JACOB for instance is "God protects", others say it's from an Ethiopian word meaning "Steinhuhn" ("rock chicken" or something like that). But at one point it was comprehended as "holding the heel" or "sneaking behind the heels" (> to betray) and there is a good story to this. From then on almost everybody who named his child JACOB thought of JACOB the betraying heelholder (if he thought of anything at all).
Now what is the "better" meaning? What is more original? And where does "etymological fallacy" come in? But on this board, I understand, any piece of information is of interest, if it helps to get the history of a name straight. And this is why I always try to ask: what was first? What happened later and why was this? A lot of times people misunderstood a name or a part of it and thus changed it to what they thought made more sense. To me this is the most interesting part of chasing wild geese.
1
thanks for repling....
to follow your thought, that's why i was drawn to the book ('What to name the baby: a treasury of names' by Evelyn Wells) after borrowing it from a library many a time...this writer did research and at the time one of the only book that didn't say "...name you child MADONNA after the popular singer..."....not my idea of meaning..?
this was a passing thought explored
OneWorldTree geneology records have vanessa as a surname (in the UK)
i won't keep you on this subject, for there are soon many more, feel better soon..shannon
to follow your thought, that's why i was drawn to the book ('What to name the baby: a treasury of names' by Evelyn Wells) after borrowing it from a library many a time...this writer did research and at the time one of the only book that didn't say "...name you child MADONNA after the popular singer..."....not my idea of meaning..?
this was a passing thought explored
OneWorldTree geneology records have vanessa as a surname (in the UK)
i won't keep you on this subject, for there are soon many more, feel better soon..shannon
1