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Help[Opinions] The use of names you cannot pronounce.
...Before you jump on the title, please to be reading the full message. ;)
The long version: Suppose you really like a name. No, suppose you love it. Suppose you think it's pretty and spunky and overall just very nice for a child, and suppose you'd like to use it someday.
But suppose it's from a language you don't speak, whose sounds are incredibly difficult for you to wrap your tongue around. You can manage very similar sounds in your own native language, but you will never, never be able to recreate the name in its exact original pronunciation.
So you have a name that you love but will never be able to pronounce 100% accurately. The way you can pronounce it wouldn't be especially difficult or counter-intuitive to other English-speakers, but if someone who spoke the language heard it, they would know that you weren't pronouncing it quite right. Do you tell yourself that it's all right, that multi-culti names are in fact awesome even if they don't translate over exactly the same? Or is the fact that it will never be quite "right" impetus enough to keep you from using the name?
The short version: I now know without a doubt how Ruxandra "Ruxi" is pronounced, and there is no way in hell I will ever, ever be able to replicate the sounds on a regular basis. I'm not Romanian, I don't live amongst Romanians, and it's doubtful I'll ever learn the language--if I had a Ruxi, hers would always be an Americanized pronunciation of the name. And I'm not sure how I feel about that right now, and I'd like your thoughts on the matter.
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The long version: Suppose you really like a name. No, suppose you love it. Suppose you think it's pretty and spunky and overall just very nice for a child, and suppose you'd like to use it someday.
But suppose it's from a language you don't speak, whose sounds are incredibly difficult for you to wrap your tongue around. You can manage very similar sounds in your own native language, but you will never, never be able to recreate the name in its exact original pronunciation.
So you have a name that you love but will never be able to pronounce 100% accurately. The way you can pronounce it wouldn't be especially difficult or counter-intuitive to other English-speakers, but if someone who spoke the language heard it, they would know that you weren't pronouncing it quite right. Do you tell yourself that it's all right, that multi-culti names are in fact awesome even if they don't translate over exactly the same? Or is the fact that it will never be quite "right" impetus enough to keep you from using the name?
The short version: I now know without a doubt how Ruxandra "Ruxi" is pronounced, and there is no way in hell I will ever, ever be able to replicate the sounds on a regular basis. I'm not Romanian, I don't live amongst Romanians, and it's doubtful I'll ever learn the language--if I had a Ruxi, hers would always be an Americanized pronunciation of the name. And I'm not sure how I feel about that right now, and I'd like your thoughts on the matter.
Array
This message was edited 12/21/2007, 10:05 AM
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Replies
I see this a lot in last names, in Maine.(m)
I live on the Maine/Canadian border, in a French-speaking area, and the Maine town is pretty much French-speaking too, and nearly all the last names are French. However, some of them have evolved into different spelling, and even different pronounciation.
Case in point, a very common name, Pelletier. In French, it's Pell-tee-ay. But some have tired of being miss-pronounced, and go by Pell-i-teer.
I live on the Maine/Canadian border, in a French-speaking area, and the Maine town is pretty much French-speaking too, and nearly all the last names are French. However, some of them have evolved into different spelling, and even different pronounciation.
Case in point, a very common name, Pelletier. In French, it's Pell-tee-ay. But some have tired of being miss-pronounced, and go by Pell-i-teer.
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If your mispronunciation of the name is based solely on your first language and accent, I would say it is fine. If that is the case, and others from your background(same first language, nation of origin, etc) would see the name and pronounce it the same, then I would consider the pronounciation correct for the language you speak.
Like you said, you don't live amongst Romanians, and frankly even if you spoke the language, unless you did live with native Romanians, you probably wouldn't have quite the same accent, and the name still would not sound the same. Unless you grow up hearing and making certain sounds, it is unlikely you will ever be able to make those sounds correctly.
Consider it the anglicized version of a name not (yet) popular enough to have been anglicized.
Like you said, you don't live amongst Romanians, and frankly even if you spoke the language, unless you did live with native Romanians, you probably wouldn't have quite the same accent, and the name still would not sound the same. Unless you grow up hearing and making certain sounds, it is unlikely you will ever be able to make those sounds correctly.
Consider it the anglicized version of a name not (yet) popular enough to have been anglicized.
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I think it 's okay as long as
You try your darndest to pronounce it correctly and you know that the way you're pronouncing it is not the correct way.
Out of curiosity, what is the correct way to say Ruxandra, if it can be typed out?
You try your darndest to pronounce it correctly and you know that the way you're pronouncing it is not the correct way.
Out of curiosity, what is the correct way to say Ruxandra, if it can be typed out?
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I would still use it if I loved the name that much.
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Hmmm...that's a really good question. Very thought provoking.
Personally, I don't think I could use a name I couldn't pronounce. I would just feel embarassed every time I said it, wanting to add, "I know this isn't right! I'm trying!" just to make sure everyone knew. I just wouldn't feel good about it. Actually, I've crossed a name off my list that way. I like Harvey, but I cannot say HAR-vee. It comes out HAH-vee, with a nasally Bostonian sort of A. So I wouldn't name a kid that, even as a middle name, because then I wouldn't be able to say my own kid's name.
On the other hand. I am not sure how different your pronounciation of Ruxandra is from the right one, but I think it would be okay for you to use it without being able to pronounce it exactly. A lot of names that get adopted do develop alternate English pronounciations, Marlene for example. The -ette names also sound a bit different. So it doesn't seem horrible.
I think it's obviously personal, whether you're okay with it not being quite the right pronounciation. And I'm wondering, does not having the right pronounciation mean you'll be stumbling on the name, or do you say it clearly and consistently, just differently? Because when I can't pronounce a name right I often stumble on it, and if you're doing that, then it's probably not a good idea to use it.
But presumably, you do have clarity in your pronounciation, since otherwise I doubt you'd be asking. Hmm. Well, sorry this post is so babbly. In short, the answer is that I don't really know, it depends on the name and on your feelings. But those are my thoughts.
Personally, I don't think I could use a name I couldn't pronounce. I would just feel embarassed every time I said it, wanting to add, "I know this isn't right! I'm trying!" just to make sure everyone knew. I just wouldn't feel good about it. Actually, I've crossed a name off my list that way. I like Harvey, but I cannot say HAR-vee. It comes out HAH-vee, with a nasally Bostonian sort of A. So I wouldn't name a kid that, even as a middle name, because then I wouldn't be able to say my own kid's name.
On the other hand. I am not sure how different your pronounciation of Ruxandra is from the right one, but I think it would be okay for you to use it without being able to pronounce it exactly. A lot of names that get adopted do develop alternate English pronounciations, Marlene for example. The -ette names also sound a bit different. So it doesn't seem horrible.
I think it's obviously personal, whether you're okay with it not being quite the right pronounciation. And I'm wondering, does not having the right pronounciation mean you'll be stumbling on the name, or do you say it clearly and consistently, just differently? Because when I can't pronounce a name right I often stumble on it, and if you're doing that, then it's probably not a good idea to use it.
But presumably, you do have clarity in your pronounciation, since otherwise I doubt you'd be asking. Hmm. Well, sorry this post is so babbly. In short, the answer is that I don't really know, it depends on the name and on your feelings. But those are my thoughts.
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I say it clearly and consistently if I just pronounce what I'd consider a similar but Americanized version--rook-SAHN-dra, with the "oo" somewhere between the "oo" in "rook" and the "oo" in "tool". I can't really describe the differences from the Romanian prn, I'm afraid, and I don't have a sound file to link to. D:
The answer "I don't really know" is the same one I've got at the moment. This will take some thought.
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The answer "I don't really know" is the same one I've got at the moment. This will take some thought.
Array
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It is a difficult one, I think.
However, you do know how it is pronounced and are attempting to pronounce it as accurately as possible. That doesn't bother me because I know that names on my list that I can't pronounce quite right so to say 'you shouldn't use it then' to you would be hypocritical.
On the other hand, had you been insisting on pronouncing Aisling as AYZ-ling or insisting that Benoit was BEN-oh-it then I would be annoyed :)
However, you do know how it is pronounced and are attempting to pronounce it as accurately as possible. That doesn't bother me because I know that names on my list that I can't pronounce quite right so to say 'you shouldn't use it then' to you would be hypocritical.
On the other hand, had you been insisting on pronouncing Aisling as AYZ-ling or insisting that Benoit was BEN-oh-it then I would be annoyed :)
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It depends on the name.
In this case, I think it would be fine. In my case with Mireille, I'd prefer invert the vowels so that Mirielle is phonetically correct and not confusing, because everyone would butcher Mireille and Mirielle is almost as nice. But some names I would say it might matter. It's also a personal preference, I think, on a "how much do I care?" level.
In this case, I think it would be fine. In my case with Mireille, I'd prefer invert the vowels so that Mirielle is phonetically correct and not confusing, because everyone would butcher Mireille and Mirielle is almost as nice. But some names I would say it might matter. It's also a personal preference, I think, on a "how much do I care?" level.
This message was edited 12/21/2007, 11:05 AM
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It depends. I have a somewhat related problem, because I like Rowena pronounced as I would sponteanously the Italian way, i.e. Ro-weh-na, which I much prefer to Ro-wee-na.
If it's only a slight variation I guess it's ok, especially as you're aware you're altering the original pronounciation, but I think for instance unless one is a fluent speaker of Chinese, Chinese names are better avoided, since the Chinese pronounciation system is so difficult to get right.
I've no idea how the Romanian pronounciation system works, but to make an analogy with Italian, I guess I could tollerate a little American Giovanni who calls himself Jee-ovannee rather than Jo-vannee because the "gi" sound is difficult to get for English speakers, whereas if it were pronounced "Go-vannee" or "Jo-vannay" it would irk me because it would be just a random and somewhat ignorant mispronounciation.
If it's only a slight variation I guess it's ok, especially as you're aware you're altering the original pronounciation, but I think for instance unless one is a fluent speaker of Chinese, Chinese names are better avoided, since the Chinese pronounciation system is so difficult to get right.
I've no idea how the Romanian pronounciation system works, but to make an analogy with Italian, I guess I could tollerate a little American Giovanni who calls himself Jee-ovannee rather than Jo-vannee because the "gi" sound is difficult to get for English speakers, whereas if it were pronounced "Go-vannee" or "Jo-vannay" it would irk me because it would be just a random and somewhat ignorant mispronounciation.
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Well, mixed feelings about this.
Since I speak a language whose sounds are near impossible for English speakers to pronounce the way we do, I guess I have an 'insider perspective'.
First I like many 'English' names, that are never pronounced the right way in Croatian and I would never use them for that reason:-(
And it does bother me when people use 'our' names and can't pronounce them (even though this doesn't happen that offten, but I've seen it a few times with names like Franjo, Lovorka, etc.).
So I guess I've concluded that I'd rather not use a name that doesn't have a standard or same pronounciation in my language.
Since I speak a language whose sounds are near impossible for English speakers to pronounce the way we do, I guess I have an 'insider perspective'.
First I like many 'English' names, that are never pronounced the right way in Croatian and I would never use them for that reason:-(
And it does bother me when people use 'our' names and can't pronounce them (even though this doesn't happen that offten, but I've seen it a few times with names like Franjo, Lovorka, etc.).
So I guess I've concluded that I'd rather not use a name that doesn't have a standard or same pronounciation in my language.
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Hmm.
That's a difficult question, requiring a lot of thought.
On one hand, I find it slightly pretentious and very arrogant when people do that. On the other hand, I know you wouldn't be that way, you're going in with a respect of the culture and the name, and are upset that you can't pronounce it right. You're not proclaiming from the hilltops that the way you're pronouncing makes sense, the way that they do it (or spell) it doesn't - which I find obnoxious as well as arrogant.
I think what I'm trying to say is that you would do your best to keep the integrity of the name, despite the difference in pronunciation, and I think it's okay.
That's a difficult question, requiring a lot of thought.
On one hand, I find it slightly pretentious and very arrogant when people do that. On the other hand, I know you wouldn't be that way, you're going in with a respect of the culture and the name, and are upset that you can't pronounce it right. You're not proclaiming from the hilltops that the way you're pronouncing makes sense, the way that they do it (or spell) it doesn't - which I find obnoxious as well as arrogant.
I think what I'm trying to say is that you would do your best to keep the integrity of the name, despite the difference in pronunciation, and I think it's okay.
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