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Help[Opinions] I find that extremely offensive
in reply to a message by blaaarg
FAUX Irish names are trendy - ala Aiden (spelt like this) and Aidan (anglicised), Ryan, Carson etc. And by the way, I can find 4 Irish names in the top 100. FOUR. I would say Hebrew names are far more overly trendy than Irish names thank you very much.
And why the hell are they pretentious? I am Irish, and I would bet a lot of money that most people who name their child Lorccan or Aodh are Irish or have some Irish heritage they would like to honour. Why is a sibset of Lorccan, Niamh and Siobhan any more pretentious than a sibset of Asher, Job and Ezekiel? Or Amir, Safiya and Zahid? Or Pierre, Marcelline and Blaise? Or Alena, Felicie and Hartmut.
Give me a break. There is NO difference.
A name not making phonetic sense to you being a reason to hate them is narrow minded and ridiculous IMO.
Finally there is something particularly special about them. That is obvious by the fact that people use them. They are special to millions of Americans and Australians who have Irish heritage. They are special to the millions of Irish people, those that live in Ireland and expats around the world. They represent our history, they represent the triumph of maintaining our culture despite 800 years of English invasion and occupation where they tried to make our language, stories and culture extinct. They represent our Freedom in 1922, they represent the myths and the Celtic religion of the past, our folklore, the Irish saints.
The names represent so much
So don't make such sweeping generalisations about a culture you obviously don't understand.
And why the hell are they pretentious? I am Irish, and I would bet a lot of money that most people who name their child Lorccan or Aodh are Irish or have some Irish heritage they would like to honour. Why is a sibset of Lorccan, Niamh and Siobhan any more pretentious than a sibset of Asher, Job and Ezekiel? Or Amir, Safiya and Zahid? Or Pierre, Marcelline and Blaise? Or Alena, Felicie and Hartmut.
Give me a break. There is NO difference.
A name not making phonetic sense to you being a reason to hate them is narrow minded and ridiculous IMO.
Finally there is something particularly special about them. That is obvious by the fact that people use them. They are special to millions of Americans and Australians who have Irish heritage. They are special to the millions of Irish people, those that live in Ireland and expats around the world. They represent our history, they represent the triumph of maintaining our culture despite 800 years of English invasion and occupation where they tried to make our language, stories and culture extinct. They represent our Freedom in 1922, they represent the myths and the Celtic religion of the past, our folklore, the Irish saints.
The names represent so much
So don't make such sweeping generalisations about a culture you obviously don't understand.
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Well, okay. They're still trendy. I know it's a sweeping generalization, but it's my gut instinct to call them trendy anyway because I'm so tired of hearing about people's Irish heritage, because about 90% of the people I meet have got it. It's pretty much the same reason I'm tired of hearing Elizabeth as a first name. Like how any conversation about middle names turns into "Elizabeth," "Marie," "Lynn," "Elizabeth," and "Elizabeth," any conversation I have about heritage turns into "Scot/Irish," "Scot/Irish," "Scot/Irish and part English" "I'm all Irish," "African and a quarter dutch," "Scot/Irish." Yeah, it's a cool culture worthy of respect.
The pretentious argument may have been a bit of a stretch. Let's see if I can find a root for it deep within my subconscious. Hm.
...
I think it has to do with the fact that most people I meet have a bunch of Irish heritage, and so the ones who name their kids impossible to pronounce (and I maintain this point. We are not taught Gaelic in schools) heavy clunky Irish names with cute meanings (and they are cute meanings -- little wolf, little hound, little poet, fire! I think this is another reason I dislike them, their meanings tend to be so damn cute) to reflect their Irish heritage (worthy of reflecting, of course, just extremely tiresome) bores the hell out of me and makes me want to say "Oh, aren't you special, you're Irish."
And maybe it's basic and silly, but it bugs the hell out of me that Caiomhe or whatever is pronounced Keeva and it makes it almost impossible for me to be able to take it seriously.
AND
I think there are better ways to celebrate Irish culture than naming your kids after it.
NOW. I say all this as an American. If I were living in Ireland it would be completely different.
The pretentious argument may have been a bit of a stretch. Let's see if I can find a root for it deep within my subconscious. Hm.
...
I think it has to do with the fact that most people I meet have a bunch of Irish heritage, and so the ones who name their kids impossible to pronounce (and I maintain this point. We are not taught Gaelic in schools) heavy clunky Irish names with cute meanings (and they are cute meanings -- little wolf, little hound, little poet, fire! I think this is another reason I dislike them, their meanings tend to be so damn cute) to reflect their Irish heritage (worthy of reflecting, of course, just extremely tiresome) bores the hell out of me and makes me want to say "Oh, aren't you special, you're Irish."
And maybe it's basic and silly, but it bugs the hell out of me that Caiomhe or whatever is pronounced Keeva and it makes it almost impossible for me to be able to take it seriously.
AND
I think there are better ways to celebrate Irish culture than naming your kids after it.
NOW. I say all this as an American. If I were living in Ireland it would be completely different.
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Well, if you're American and you are Caucasian (and heck, even if you aren't), and you look at the numbers of immigrants that came into our country, the Irish (as well as the Germans) have an extremely high number, if not the highest. So it would be pretty difficult to find someone without Irish ancestry after 200 hundred years or so.
Plus if you an American and of Irish decent and take a look at any history resource, you'll see that many immigrants, including the Irish had a hard time of it for, oh, I'd say the first hundred years they were here. Sadly, many ethnicities still have a hard time of it. So to prevail over that would be another thing to celebrate about the culture. I'd say it's just like an African-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American chosing a name from their background to name their child and honor their culture.
I'm not trying to sell you on Irish names (I prefer Scottish names myself), but I really don't think they are as trendy as you think. Not to mention, English is probably one of the most phonetically DISORGANIZED languages around. Our letter arrangements do not always equal the same sound, which makes it extremely hard to learn, ask any Second-Language English learner. So I think that's an unfair argument, as well.
Plus if you an American and of Irish decent and take a look at any history resource, you'll see that many immigrants, including the Irish had a hard time of it for, oh, I'd say the first hundred years they were here. Sadly, many ethnicities still have a hard time of it. So to prevail over that would be another thing to celebrate about the culture. I'd say it's just like an African-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American chosing a name from their background to name their child and honor their culture.
I'm not trying to sell you on Irish names (I prefer Scottish names myself), but I really don't think they are as trendy as you think. Not to mention, English is probably one of the most phonetically DISORGANIZED languages around. Our letter arrangements do not always equal the same sound, which makes it extremely hard to learn, ask any Second-Language English learner. So I think that's an unfair argument, as well.
This message was edited 9/8/2007, 8:13 AM
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Yeah, I've found some Kennedy's way back in my tree. I know what you're saying - most everyone has some Irish in them. Which is why being 1/16th Irish is a strange thing to be proud of, for me. It's trendy to name your kids Irish things now like it was trendy to name them German things in the 20's or so, and I bet German names would have grated on my nerves back then too, although I really like them now.
And they did have a hard time the first 100 years or so, but that's done now, their descendants are the majority. (Speaking of Irish immigrants to America, not Ireland Irish.)
And English being so disorganized is one of the reasons Gaelic phonetics bother me so much, actually. We have words from almost every set of phonetic standards in our language, but mh is never v and ci is USUALLY see. And it's so hard for people to get the hugely complicated rules of English phonetics down in the first place that throwing these seemingly random sets of letters around and declaring that they sound like something completely different from what they look like makes me defensive. (I MUCH prefer anglicanized spellings to the original Irish ones. I don't mind misspellings of names if they make pronunciation easier - the main exception to this one being Michael.)
So anyway, I hope you can understand my arguments a bit better and appreciate that they were based on the same set of facts. I think?
And they did have a hard time the first 100 years or so, but that's done now, their descendants are the majority. (Speaking of Irish immigrants to America, not Ireland Irish.)
And English being so disorganized is one of the reasons Gaelic phonetics bother me so much, actually. We have words from almost every set of phonetic standards in our language, but mh is never v and ci is USUALLY see. And it's so hard for people to get the hugely complicated rules of English phonetics down in the first place that throwing these seemingly random sets of letters around and declaring that they sound like something completely different from what they look like makes me defensive. (I MUCH prefer anglicanized spellings to the original Irish ones. I don't mind misspellings of names if they make pronunciation easier - the main exception to this one being Michael.)
So anyway, I hope you can understand my arguments a bit better and appreciate that they were based on the same set of facts. I think?
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I understand your argument. No hard feelings, just clarifying and putting my own two cents in. :)
This message was edited 9/8/2007, 9:46 AM
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Seriously, the argument is lost on you
I was raised in Ireland. I lost family to the English, to the Potato Famine which was made MUCH worse by the English. My family has stories past down through generations about our family and more importantly Ireland's suffering. We were raped, robbed and murdered. My great-grandfather fought in the Ango-Irish War for our freedom. A name is SO much more than a moniker, it is an identity IMO and if you don't see it as important than why are you at this site?
My children will spend a great deal of their childhood in Ireland like me. They will be proud of their ancestry, culture and heritage, as I am. They will be Irish and respect our fight to be as such.
I was raised in Ireland. I lost family to the English, to the Potato Famine which was made MUCH worse by the English. My family has stories past down through generations about our family and more importantly Ireland's suffering. We were raped, robbed and murdered. My great-grandfather fought in the Ango-Irish War for our freedom. A name is SO much more than a moniker, it is an identity IMO and if you don't see it as important than why are you at this site?
My children will spend a great deal of their childhood in Ireland like me. They will be proud of their ancestry, culture and heritage, as I am. They will be Irish and respect our fight to be as such.
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Okay. Cool. Fine with me. Be as proud of being Irish as you like. I'm still not going to like your kids' names, and you are going to exert a lot more energy being defensive about it than I will about not liking them.
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Totally agree
They represent our history, they represent the triumph of maintaining our culture despite 800 years of English invasion and occupation where they tried to make our language, stories and culture extinct. They represent our Freedom in 1922, they represent the myths and the Celtic religion of the past, our folklore, the Irish saints.
The names represent so much
Very well said. But people who aren't from Ireland might not understand that and I suppose we can't really expect them to. To them, they are just names. It's really sad that someone is so full of hate for the names because "they don't make any sense phonetically".
They represent our history, they represent the triumph of maintaining our culture despite 800 years of English invasion and occupation where they tried to make our language, stories and culture extinct. They represent our Freedom in 1922, they represent the myths and the Celtic religion of the past, our folklore, the Irish saints.
The names represent so much
Very well said. But people who aren't from Ireland might not understand that and I suppose we can't really expect them to. To them, they are just names. It's really sad that someone is so full of hate for the names because "they don't make any sense phonetically".
This message was edited 9/8/2007, 3:36 AM
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Absolutely agree!
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