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Help[Opinions] Re: WDYTO Irish names?
in reply to a message by Nobody
I hate them for the following reasons:
They are really trendy
They are really pretentious
They DON'T MAKE ANY PHONETIC SENSE eta: to me. I thought I said that, sorry.
There's nothing particularly special about them and I don't see why people love them so much.
For alternatives for the ones with cool meanings, try anything from any of these:
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=fire&submit=Go
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=ancient&submit=Go (well, this encompasses ancient rome and greece, but you'll find something)
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=old&submit=Go
(old testament I guess, but still)
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=little+wolf&submit=Go
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=wolf&submit=Go
and god, what's wrong with Conan, for cryin out loud
Lorccan's neat but it still pisses me off because of two C's that don't make sense to me
Orla sounds really silly and too close to Oral and Orca
I have a really hard time believing there aren't any other conventional names that mean freedom
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=elf&submit=Go
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=sprite&submit=Go
I hate Tadhg because of Teagan, which is SUCH a stupid name, and because it is spelled counter-intuitively.
Bleah. Anyway. Sorry to be harsh but I really dislike them.
They are really trendy
They are really pretentious
They DON'T MAKE ANY PHONETIC SENSE eta: to me. I thought I said that, sorry.
There's nothing particularly special about them and I don't see why people love them so much.
For alternatives for the ones with cool meanings, try anything from any of these:
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=fire&submit=Go
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=ancient&submit=Go (well, this encompasses ancient rome and greece, but you'll find something)
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=old&submit=Go
(old testament I guess, but still)
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=little+wolf&submit=Go
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=wolf&submit=Go
and god, what's wrong with Conan, for cryin out loud
Lorccan's neat but it still pisses me off because of two C's that don't make sense to me
Orla sounds really silly and too close to Oral and Orca
I have a really hard time believing there aren't any other conventional names that mean freedom
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=elf&submit=Go
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=md&terms=sprite&submit=Go
I hate Tadhg because of Teagan, which is SUCH a stupid name, and because it is spelled counter-intuitively.
Bleah. Anyway. Sorry to be harsh but I really dislike them.
This message was edited 9/7/2007, 7:26 PM
Archived Thread - replies disabled
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Replies
I find that extremely offensive
FAUX Irish names are trendy - ala Aiden (spelt like this) and Aidan (anglicised), Ryan, Carson etc. And by the way, I can find 4 Irish names in the top 100. FOUR. I would say Hebrew names are far more overly trendy than Irish names thank you very much.
And why the hell are they pretentious? I am Irish, and I would bet a lot of money that most people who name their child Lorccan or Aodh are Irish or have some Irish heritage they would like to honour. Why is a sibset of Lorccan, Niamh and Siobhan any more pretentious than a sibset of Asher, Job and Ezekiel? Or Amir, Safiya and Zahid? Or Pierre, Marcelline and Blaise? Or Alena, Felicie and Hartmut.
Give me a break. There is NO difference.
A name not making phonetic sense to you being a reason to hate them is narrow minded and ridiculous IMO.
Finally there is something particularly special about them. That is obvious by the fact that people use them. They are special to millions of Americans and Australians who have Irish heritage. They are special to the millions of Irish people, those that live in Ireland and expats around the world. They represent our history, they represent the triumph of maintaining our culture despite 800 years of English invasion and occupation where they tried to make our language, stories and culture extinct. They represent our Freedom in 1922, they represent the myths and the Celtic religion of the past, our folklore, the Irish saints.
The names represent so much
So don't make such sweeping generalisations about a culture you obviously don't understand.
FAUX Irish names are trendy - ala Aiden (spelt like this) and Aidan (anglicised), Ryan, Carson etc. And by the way, I can find 4 Irish names in the top 100. FOUR. I would say Hebrew names are far more overly trendy than Irish names thank you very much.
And why the hell are they pretentious? I am Irish, and I would bet a lot of money that most people who name their child Lorccan or Aodh are Irish or have some Irish heritage they would like to honour. Why is a sibset of Lorccan, Niamh and Siobhan any more pretentious than a sibset of Asher, Job and Ezekiel? Or Amir, Safiya and Zahid? Or Pierre, Marcelline and Blaise? Or Alena, Felicie and Hartmut.
Give me a break. There is NO difference.
A name not making phonetic sense to you being a reason to hate them is narrow minded and ridiculous IMO.
Finally there is something particularly special about them. That is obvious by the fact that people use them. They are special to millions of Americans and Australians who have Irish heritage. They are special to the millions of Irish people, those that live in Ireland and expats around the world. They represent our history, they represent the triumph of maintaining our culture despite 800 years of English invasion and occupation where they tried to make our language, stories and culture extinct. They represent our Freedom in 1922, they represent the myths and the Celtic religion of the past, our folklore, the Irish saints.
The names represent so much
So don't make such sweeping generalisations about a culture you obviously don't understand.
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Well, okay. They're still trendy. I know it's a sweeping generalization, but it's my gut instinct to call them trendy anyway because I'm so tired of hearing about people's Irish heritage, because about 90% of the people I meet have got it. It's pretty much the same reason I'm tired of hearing Elizabeth as a first name. Like how any conversation about middle names turns into "Elizabeth," "Marie," "Lynn," "Elizabeth," and "Elizabeth," any conversation I have about heritage turns into "Scot/Irish," "Scot/Irish," "Scot/Irish and part English" "I'm all Irish," "African and a quarter dutch," "Scot/Irish." Yeah, it's a cool culture worthy of respect.
The pretentious argument may have been a bit of a stretch. Let's see if I can find a root for it deep within my subconscious. Hm.
...
I think it has to do with the fact that most people I meet have a bunch of Irish heritage, and so the ones who name their kids impossible to pronounce (and I maintain this point. We are not taught Gaelic in schools) heavy clunky Irish names with cute meanings (and they are cute meanings -- little wolf, little hound, little poet, fire! I think this is another reason I dislike them, their meanings tend to be so damn cute) to reflect their Irish heritage (worthy of reflecting, of course, just extremely tiresome) bores the hell out of me and makes me want to say "Oh, aren't you special, you're Irish."
And maybe it's basic and silly, but it bugs the hell out of me that Caiomhe or whatever is pronounced Keeva and it makes it almost impossible for me to be able to take it seriously.
AND
I think there are better ways to celebrate Irish culture than naming your kids after it.
NOW. I say all this as an American. If I were living in Ireland it would be completely different.
The pretentious argument may have been a bit of a stretch. Let's see if I can find a root for it deep within my subconscious. Hm.
...
I think it has to do with the fact that most people I meet have a bunch of Irish heritage, and so the ones who name their kids impossible to pronounce (and I maintain this point. We are not taught Gaelic in schools) heavy clunky Irish names with cute meanings (and they are cute meanings -- little wolf, little hound, little poet, fire! I think this is another reason I dislike them, their meanings tend to be so damn cute) to reflect their Irish heritage (worthy of reflecting, of course, just extremely tiresome) bores the hell out of me and makes me want to say "Oh, aren't you special, you're Irish."
And maybe it's basic and silly, but it bugs the hell out of me that Caiomhe or whatever is pronounced Keeva and it makes it almost impossible for me to be able to take it seriously.
AND
I think there are better ways to celebrate Irish culture than naming your kids after it.
NOW. I say all this as an American. If I were living in Ireland it would be completely different.
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Well, if you're American and you are Caucasian (and heck, even if you aren't), and you look at the numbers of immigrants that came into our country, the Irish (as well as the Germans) have an extremely high number, if not the highest. So it would be pretty difficult to find someone without Irish ancestry after 200 hundred years or so.
Plus if you an American and of Irish decent and take a look at any history resource, you'll see that many immigrants, including the Irish had a hard time of it for, oh, I'd say the first hundred years they were here. Sadly, many ethnicities still have a hard time of it. So to prevail over that would be another thing to celebrate about the culture. I'd say it's just like an African-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American chosing a name from their background to name their child and honor their culture.
I'm not trying to sell you on Irish names (I prefer Scottish names myself), but I really don't think they are as trendy as you think. Not to mention, English is probably one of the most phonetically DISORGANIZED languages around. Our letter arrangements do not always equal the same sound, which makes it extremely hard to learn, ask any Second-Language English learner. So I think that's an unfair argument, as well.
Plus if you an American and of Irish decent and take a look at any history resource, you'll see that many immigrants, including the Irish had a hard time of it for, oh, I'd say the first hundred years they were here. Sadly, many ethnicities still have a hard time of it. So to prevail over that would be another thing to celebrate about the culture. I'd say it's just like an African-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American chosing a name from their background to name their child and honor their culture.
I'm not trying to sell you on Irish names (I prefer Scottish names myself), but I really don't think they are as trendy as you think. Not to mention, English is probably one of the most phonetically DISORGANIZED languages around. Our letter arrangements do not always equal the same sound, which makes it extremely hard to learn, ask any Second-Language English learner. So I think that's an unfair argument, as well.
This message was edited 9/8/2007, 8:13 AM
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Yeah, I've found some Kennedy's way back in my tree. I know what you're saying - most everyone has some Irish in them. Which is why being 1/16th Irish is a strange thing to be proud of, for me. It's trendy to name your kids Irish things now like it was trendy to name them German things in the 20's or so, and I bet German names would have grated on my nerves back then too, although I really like them now.
And they did have a hard time the first 100 years or so, but that's done now, their descendants are the majority. (Speaking of Irish immigrants to America, not Ireland Irish.)
And English being so disorganized is one of the reasons Gaelic phonetics bother me so much, actually. We have words from almost every set of phonetic standards in our language, but mh is never v and ci is USUALLY see. And it's so hard for people to get the hugely complicated rules of English phonetics down in the first place that throwing these seemingly random sets of letters around and declaring that they sound like something completely different from what they look like makes me defensive. (I MUCH prefer anglicanized spellings to the original Irish ones. I don't mind misspellings of names if they make pronunciation easier - the main exception to this one being Michael.)
So anyway, I hope you can understand my arguments a bit better and appreciate that they were based on the same set of facts. I think?
And they did have a hard time the first 100 years or so, but that's done now, their descendants are the majority. (Speaking of Irish immigrants to America, not Ireland Irish.)
And English being so disorganized is one of the reasons Gaelic phonetics bother me so much, actually. We have words from almost every set of phonetic standards in our language, but mh is never v and ci is USUALLY see. And it's so hard for people to get the hugely complicated rules of English phonetics down in the first place that throwing these seemingly random sets of letters around and declaring that they sound like something completely different from what they look like makes me defensive. (I MUCH prefer anglicanized spellings to the original Irish ones. I don't mind misspellings of names if they make pronunciation easier - the main exception to this one being Michael.)
So anyway, I hope you can understand my arguments a bit better and appreciate that they were based on the same set of facts. I think?
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I understand your argument. No hard feelings, just clarifying and putting my own two cents in. :)
This message was edited 9/8/2007, 9:46 AM
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Seriously, the argument is lost on you
I was raised in Ireland. I lost family to the English, to the Potato Famine which was made MUCH worse by the English. My family has stories past down through generations about our family and more importantly Ireland's suffering. We were raped, robbed and murdered. My great-grandfather fought in the Ango-Irish War for our freedom. A name is SO much more than a moniker, it is an identity IMO and if you don't see it as important than why are you at this site?
My children will spend a great deal of their childhood in Ireland like me. They will be proud of their ancestry, culture and heritage, as I am. They will be Irish and respect our fight to be as such.
I was raised in Ireland. I lost family to the English, to the Potato Famine which was made MUCH worse by the English. My family has stories past down through generations about our family and more importantly Ireland's suffering. We were raped, robbed and murdered. My great-grandfather fought in the Ango-Irish War for our freedom. A name is SO much more than a moniker, it is an identity IMO and if you don't see it as important than why are you at this site?
My children will spend a great deal of their childhood in Ireland like me. They will be proud of their ancestry, culture and heritage, as I am. They will be Irish and respect our fight to be as such.
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Okay. Cool. Fine with me. Be as proud of being Irish as you like. I'm still not going to like your kids' names, and you are going to exert a lot more energy being defensive about it than I will about not liking them.
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Totally agree
They represent our history, they represent the triumph of maintaining our culture despite 800 years of English invasion and occupation where they tried to make our language, stories and culture extinct. They represent our Freedom in 1922, they represent the myths and the Celtic religion of the past, our folklore, the Irish saints.
The names represent so much
Very well said. But people who aren't from Ireland might not understand that and I suppose we can't really expect them to. To them, they are just names. It's really sad that someone is so full of hate for the names because "they don't make any sense phonetically".
They represent our history, they represent the triumph of maintaining our culture despite 800 years of English invasion and occupation where they tried to make our language, stories and culture extinct. They represent our Freedom in 1922, they represent the myths and the Celtic religion of the past, our folklore, the Irish saints.
The names represent so much
Very well said. But people who aren't from Ireland might not understand that and I suppose we can't really expect them to. To them, they are just names. It's really sad that someone is so full of hate for the names because "they don't make any sense phonetically".
This message was edited 9/8/2007, 3:36 AM
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Absolutely agree!
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Kinda agree.
I really don't like that I have to look them up over and over to remember than Naoimh is pronounced "neev".
And to whoever said French/Spanish/etc names were the same way... Some, but not like this... Alexandrine, Adrien, Avril, Tatienne, etc... All MUCH easier to figure out the pronounciation than most of the Irish names.
I really don't like that I have to look them up over and over to remember than Naoimh is pronounced "neev".
And to whoever said French/Spanish/etc names were the same way... Some, but not like this... Alexandrine, Adrien, Avril, Tatienne, etc... All MUCH easier to figure out the pronounciation than most of the Irish names.
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I agree. It's just my personal taste. I'm okay with things that don't make phonetic sense, so that's not my issue. I just don't like the sound of many Irish names. It's somewhat that they're so trendy and just all blur together. (By the way, when I was growing up, no one told me Irish was in. I used to find my semi-Irish roots diappointing, as I lived in Massachusetts where no one and I mean no one was without some speck of Irish blood. Apparently now I'm cool?) I just don't really understand the appeal. But meh. I tend to like very, sort of, er, heavy names (like ones with German roots or fusty-ish English ones), and most Irish names sound very airy to me. Just like there isn't much there, once you get past all the "bh"s and "dhg"s.
I don't hate Irish names. They just aren't to my taste and I'm confused as to how they've remained trendy for so long.
I don't hate Irish names. They just aren't to my taste and I'm confused as to how they've remained trendy for so long.
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Hey!
They may not make sense phonetically IN ENGLISH, but nor do many French names, Spanish names, German names, Greek names etc.
Also, I don't see why they are any more pretentious than those of another language. I agree that it's annoying when people say they love Irish names just because they're Irish, but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing matter. You don't have to like all Irish names, just as you don't have to like all English ones.
Sorry to rant, but I found your post rather offensive.
They may not make sense phonetically IN ENGLISH, but nor do many French names, Spanish names, German names, Greek names etc.
Also, I don't see why they are any more pretentious than those of another language. I agree that it's annoying when people say they love Irish names just because they're Irish, but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing matter. You don't have to like all Irish names, just as you don't have to like all English ones.
Sorry to rant, but I found your post rather offensive.
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I would disagree with this. Many French, Spanish, Greek, German and the like make sense in English at least to some extent because they are all of similar origin. English has many french-origin words, is Germanic in nature and took many words from Greek and the Romance languages. Irish however is completely different. It is of the Indo-European tree, but it is not really as tied into the other languages as some Indo-European languages are, and is completely foreign to English Speakers for the msot part.
Many irish names have an anglacized version for a reason, to make them more user-friendly to people who do not speak or understand the native tongue. I am not saying it is wrong to use them, just saying that they are a bit different than French, German, Spanish, etc. names for English.
Many irish names have an anglacized version for a reason, to make them more user-friendly to people who do not speak or understand the native tongue. I am not saying it is wrong to use them, just saying that they are a bit different than French, German, Spanish, etc. names for English.
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From my experience....
Yes, they may "make more sense" seeing as English has borrowed many words from other languages, but please try to have the average, non-name geek, non-language learner to pronounce names from French such as Edouard and Spanish, German, etc. and you will find that they can pronounce htem just as well as say Caoimhe.
Unless they are very common like Danielle or Diego.
Yes, they may "make more sense" seeing as English has borrowed many words from other languages, but please try to have the average, non-name geek, non-language learner to pronounce names from French such as Edouard and Spanish, German, etc. and you will find that they can pronounce htem just as well as say Caoimhe.
Unless they are very common like Danielle or Diego.
This message was edited 9/8/2007, 7:59 AM
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It may be completely foreign to most English speakers now, but so were many words from the other languages at some point in history. English people got used to them, and I believe they will get used to Irish names to some extent too, as long as they don't close their minds against them because they "make no sense".
Maybe some of the names won't go over because they're just too different, but I don't see what's mad about Lorccan / Lorcan, Cuan, Cian, and once you've learned some basic rules, it's not difficult to figure out most of the others.
Maybe some of the names won't go over because they're just too different, but I don't see what's mad about Lorccan / Lorcan, Cuan, Cian, and once you've learned some basic rules, it's not difficult to figure out most of the others.
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But figuring out that C is soft with I in English is such a hard concept to get down for most people in the first place! Cian almost makes me want to cry.
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Well if it's so hard to understand that it's soft, maybe we should all just stick with the Irish prn., since it's obviously more sensible :p
I think I'm ready to agree to disagree now, I don't want to argue with you as I usually agree with everything you say!
I think I'm ready to agree to disagree now, I don't want to argue with you as I usually agree with everything you say!
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What? Cian is pronounced with a hard C. You take this way too seriously. Makes you want to cry? Why?
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"Many irish names have an anglacized version for a reason, to make them more user-friendly to people who do not speak or understand the native tongue. I am not saying it is wrong to use them, just saying that they are a bit different than French, German, Spanish, etc. names for English."
I agree with you on this part! Even in Ireland, it's not too uncommon for parents to use an anglicised spelling of a traditional Irish name, because the traditional spelling would cause too much hassle for the child. The example that always springs to my mind is nineties girl band B*witched, made up of four girls from Ireland, one of whom was named Keevy. Not Caoimhe, Keevy. So some Irish spellings don't really make sense from an English speaker's perspective, even if the English speaker happens to have been born and raised in Ireland. In fact, when a girl named Mairead (a fairly easy one to pronounce, IMO) started at my work, it was my Irish team leader (who spent her whole life in Ireland, and moved over here less than three years ago), who had more trouble than anyone else remembering how to say it!
I agree with you on this part! Even in Ireland, it's not too uncommon for parents to use an anglicised spelling of a traditional Irish name, because the traditional spelling would cause too much hassle for the child. The example that always springs to my mind is nineties girl band B*witched, made up of four girls from Ireland, one of whom was named Keevy. Not Caoimhe, Keevy. So some Irish spellings don't really make sense from an English speaker's perspective, even if the English speaker happens to have been born and raised in Ireland. In fact, when a girl named Mairead (a fairly easy one to pronounce, IMO) started at my work, it was my Irish team leader (who spent her whole life in Ireland, and moved over here less than three years ago), who had more trouble than anyone else remembering how to say it!
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Yeah, oh well.
Most people go all ~OMG IRISH~ when they talk about Irish names, and so they give me that impression - as pretentious and trendy.
And since French, Spanish, German, and Greek all contributed to English or came from similar roots, I can understand their phonetics, even if I don't use them in everyday English. Gaelic was shut out from English's development, and so it baffles and slightly angers me on a very basic level.
Maybe my reasons aren't particularly logical, but that doesn't stop me disliking Irish names one jot.
Most people go all ~OMG IRISH~ when they talk about Irish names, and so they give me that impression - as pretentious and trendy.
And since French, Spanish, German, and Greek all contributed to English or came from similar roots, I can understand their phonetics, even if I don't use them in everyday English. Gaelic was shut out from English's development, and so it baffles and slightly angers me on a very basic level.
Maybe my reasons aren't particularly logical, but that doesn't stop me disliking Irish names one jot.
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As I said, I too find it annoying when people like Irish names just because they're Irish, but that doesn't mean you can make a sweeping generalisation that everyone who uses one is pretentious.
I don't see why Gaelic angers you at all. I know about the history of English including the languages I mentioned, but that doesn't mean all the elements from those languages were brought into English. Look at the top names in those countries; does Alejandro make phonetic sense in English? Does Théo? You're used to these names and to the languages they come from, so maybe you don't notice the difference.
Understanding of Irish phonetics will gradually work its way into people, unless they are as close-minded as you obviously intend to be.
I don't mind you disliking Irish names, it was just the reasons you gave that I found offensive and narrow-minded.
I don't see why Gaelic angers you at all. I know about the history of English including the languages I mentioned, but that doesn't mean all the elements from those languages were brought into English. Look at the top names in those countries; does Alejandro make phonetic sense in English? Does Théo? You're used to these names and to the languages they come from, so maybe you don't notice the difference.
Understanding of Irish phonetics will gradually work its way into people, unless they are as close-minded as you obviously intend to be.
I don't mind you disliking Irish names, it was just the reasons you gave that I found offensive and narrow-minded.
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Baffles and slightly angers you...
Why on earth?
Why on earth?
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For very basic reasons, as I stated, and not ones I am going to spend a lot of energy defending as they don't merit it.
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Have you ever considered the slight possibility that maybe you just dislike trends, naming fads, etc. rather than the Irish names itself? Coming from Ireland myself, I grow up with names like Cian, Seamus, Caoimhe - how is it pretentious for Americans/Australians and anyone else with Irish heritage to honour their ancestry?
You could make the same argument for people who give their kids Russian or Dutch names, which are just as arguably hard to pronounce correctly.
Why is it that people hate things they don't understand anyway? So you don't speak Gaelic Irish - that's a reason for you to hate the names?
You could make the same argument for people who give their kids Russian or Dutch names, which are just as arguably hard to pronounce correctly.
Why is it that people hate things they don't understand anyway? So you don't speak Gaelic Irish - that's a reason for you to hate the names?
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