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ArchivesRe: Pronunciation of -iva (derived from Old English gifu) names
in reply to a message by Camilla
What you are running across here is a difference in the pronunciation of names which is historical as well as cultural.
Between 1200 and 1600 A.D., the English language went through what's called the "Great Vowel Shift". One of the first changes was that the "long" sound represented by the letter "i" changed from "eee" to "eye". Back when Lady Godiva herself was living, her name was probably pronounced with "dee" in the middle. But by 1600, native English speakers would have been using the "go-DYE-vah" pronunciation.
But most other European languages kept the "ee" sound for the letter "i". During the 19th century, English speakers, especially in the USA where there was lots of immigration from continental Europe, began to get used to "i" in names as being pronounced with the "ee" sound, as in other European languages. Back in the 1700s Maria was pronounced "mah-RYE-uh" in English. I myself had a great-great-grandmother from Tennessee named Maria, and her name was always pronounced that way. But during the last 150 years, as the average American has been exposed to so many examples of how Maria is said in languages like German, Spanish, Italian, and Latin, the normal pronunciation of the name Maria in English has gone back to "mah-REE-uh", and we've had to create the alternative spelling Mariah for those who still want the name pronounced in the 18th century way.
Because the story of Lady Godiva has been told for so long, the pronunciation of her name in English has been "stuck" with the "eye" sound favored in the 18th century. Sunniva, though it was originally the name of an English saint, did not survive in use (or regular discussion) in English. I am sure that when an English speaker around 1800 would have seen Sunnniva, they WOULD have pronounced it "sun-NYE-vah". But today, we are so used to names like Lisa, Tina, Louise, etc. being pronounced with the "ee" sound that the tendency is for English speakers to assume that sound for "i" in any new name that they come across. It is only names which have been constantly talked about since the 1700s, such as Godiva and Ida, where we seem to keep the "eye" sound at the present time. And so most modern English speakers are probably going to look at Sunniva and first try something like "sun-EEV-uh".
I would assume that most English speakers when looking at Linniva today would tend to say "lin-NEE-vuh". 200 years ago, they probably would have said "lin-EYE-vuh".
Of course, if you want to know how Linniva would be pronounced in some language other than English, you would need to consult someone fluent in that language.
Here is a link to a site about the Great Vowel Shift:
http://facweb.furman.edu/~mmenzer/gvs/
Between 1200 and 1600 A.D., the English language went through what's called the "Great Vowel Shift". One of the first changes was that the "long" sound represented by the letter "i" changed from "eee" to "eye". Back when Lady Godiva herself was living, her name was probably pronounced with "dee" in the middle. But by 1600, native English speakers would have been using the "go-DYE-vah" pronunciation.
But most other European languages kept the "ee" sound for the letter "i". During the 19th century, English speakers, especially in the USA where there was lots of immigration from continental Europe, began to get used to "i" in names as being pronounced with the "ee" sound, as in other European languages. Back in the 1700s Maria was pronounced "mah-RYE-uh" in English. I myself had a great-great-grandmother from Tennessee named Maria, and her name was always pronounced that way. But during the last 150 years, as the average American has been exposed to so many examples of how Maria is said in languages like German, Spanish, Italian, and Latin, the normal pronunciation of the name Maria in English has gone back to "mah-REE-uh", and we've had to create the alternative spelling Mariah for those who still want the name pronounced in the 18th century way.
Because the story of Lady Godiva has been told for so long, the pronunciation of her name in English has been "stuck" with the "eye" sound favored in the 18th century. Sunniva, though it was originally the name of an English saint, did not survive in use (or regular discussion) in English. I am sure that when an English speaker around 1800 would have seen Sunnniva, they WOULD have pronounced it "sun-NYE-vah". But today, we are so used to names like Lisa, Tina, Louise, etc. being pronounced with the "ee" sound that the tendency is for English speakers to assume that sound for "i" in any new name that they come across. It is only names which have been constantly talked about since the 1700s, such as Godiva and Ida, where we seem to keep the "eye" sound at the present time. And so most modern English speakers are probably going to look at Sunniva and first try something like "sun-EEV-uh".
I would assume that most English speakers when looking at Linniva today would tend to say "lin-NEE-vuh". 200 years ago, they probably would have said "lin-EYE-vuh".
Of course, if you want to know how Linniva would be pronounced in some language other than English, you would need to consult someone fluent in that language.
Here is a link to a site about the Great Vowel Shift:
http://facweb.furman.edu/~mmenzer/gvs/
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Replies
The emphasis is on the "EE". the first syllable is short and less emphasised, resulting in the reduction of the original disyllabic sunna- to sunn-.
The second element gif- (the ending originally varied by declension) loses the /g/ as this was palatalized to /j/ and merged with the following /i/ (and further contributing to the loss of the /a/ of Sunna-). The modern hard /g/ in give and gift were reintroduced from the continent in Middle English.
The second element gif- (the ending originally varied by declension) loses the /g/ as this was palatalized to /j/ and merged with the following /i/ (and further contributing to the loss of the /a/ of Sunna-). The modern hard /g/ in give and gift were reintroduced from the continent in Middle English.
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Sophia & Sunniva
Yes, Sophia was often pronounced "so-FYE-uh" before the 19th century.
As for the emphasis on Sunniva: since in modern times this really is a Scandinavian name, I think we'd have to consult an expert on Scandinavian languages to know what the custom about that is there. Perhaps it's different in the different Scandinavian countries?
Yes, Sophia was often pronounced "so-FYE-uh" before the 19th century.
As for the emphasis on Sunniva: since in modern times this really is a Scandinavian name, I think we'd have to consult an expert on Scandinavian languages to know what the custom about that is there. Perhaps it's different in the different Scandinavian countries?
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So IN the 19th century, Sophia was pronounced "so fee ya", like today? I am reading a novel set in 1878 where the hero's daughter is named Sophia and I wanted to know how it would be pronounced. I was happy to find this discussion - thank you.
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Good summary! Just one question (to you and anyone else who might know): in the States, do you or did you ever refer to a police vehicle (for transporting suspects, prisoners etc) as a Black Maria? In that phrase, which must be quite elderly by now as they most assuredly aren't black any more, Maria has its -eye- sound with no need for an H. And in South Africa - perhaps elsewhere - it's fashionable among Black namers to put an H on the end of just about any female name that ends in A. So we see Dianah, Annah, Vinoliah, Emmah and so on. No pronunciation issues at all; probably a generalisation from biblical names like Hannah, Susannah, Rebekah etc.
Vinoliah is a particular favourite of mine: there's a brand of soap here called Vinolia, and parents might be responding to its "exclusive" image ...
As for Linniva, I was at school with someone whose sister was Lynneve; I always liked it and assumed it was an inside-out version of Evelyn; now I'm starting to wonder!
Vinoliah is a particular favourite of mine: there's a brand of soap here called Vinolia, and parents might be responding to its "exclusive" image ...
As for Linniva, I was at school with someone whose sister was Lynneve; I always liked it and assumed it was an inside-out version of Evelyn; now I'm starting to wonder!
1