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Sorry, but that is just wrong
The Y in Spanish (in Spain and in the rest of locations where Spanish is spoken) doesn't sound like an English J or like a French J.
Here you have recorded sounds (for English and for Spanish):
http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#
Try to hear first the Spanish Y (ficativa, and the symbol is like a j) and immediately the English J (afrricate, voiced) and you will notice that they are very different.
The Y in Spanish (in Spain and in the rest of locations where Spanish is spoken) doesn't sound like an English J or like a French J.
Here you have recorded sounds (for English and for Spanish):
http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#
Try to hear first the Spanish Y (ficativa, and the symbol is like a j) and immediately the English J (afrricate, voiced) and you will notice that they are very different.
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Or perhaps, since you are Polish,
you are refering to the Polish J. In that case, your affirmation would be correct.
you are refering to the Polish J. In that case, your affirmation would be correct.
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My background is Polish, I've lived in Madrid as a child. Spanish is my first language.
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You lived in Madrid from 4 years old to 8 years old. The first 4 years you lived in Poland and later you lived in Canada, right? It is clear that Spanish is not your first language and I think that neither one of your familiar languages.
Some time ago, for instance, you affirmed in this board that in Spanish Albert was pronounced AL-bert. If Spanish was your first language (meaning main language) you would know perfectly: a) the form Albert is not Spanish at all, but Alberto is the form; b) it is pronounced al-BER-toh (which shows that it was not a typo when you wrote the supposed correct pronunciation).
And now that. The English J is not a sound of the Spanish, as you can see (if you are unable to hear the difference) in all the bibliography about Spanish dialectology and Spanish phonology. Saying that the Y in Spanish is (or can be) pronounced as the English J shows me not only that Spanish is not your first language, but that your knowledge of this language is not as fluent as you say.
Some time ago, for instance, you affirmed in this board that in Spanish Albert was pronounced AL-bert. If Spanish was your first language (meaning main language) you would know perfectly: a) the form Albert is not Spanish at all, but Alberto is the form; b) it is pronounced al-BER-toh (which shows that it was not a typo when you wrote the supposed correct pronunciation).
And now that. The English J is not a sound of the Spanish, as you can see (if you are unable to hear the difference) in all the bibliography about Spanish dialectology and Spanish phonology. Saying that the Y in Spanish is (or can be) pronounced as the English J shows me not only that Spanish is not your first language, but that your knowledge of this language is not as fluent as you say.
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I think it depends on which Spanish-speaking country you're in. When I worked with Mexican immigrants in an area of East Los Angeles, many of the children had names beginning with Y-, pronounced like the English J-. Yessica would have been either JEH-see-ca or just like the English Jessica, depending on how assimilated the speaker was.
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In Spanish, the pronunciation of the Y doesn't depend on the area. It is always pronounced [j] (Y as in "yes").
If they were pronouncing a Spanish name beginning with Y- with the English J-, they were simply pronouncing that not in Spanish but in English. Since the sound of the English J- doesn't exist in Spanish, the Spanish speakers adapt it as Y-, which is the more similar in their language (even being very different), and that is why some English names with J- as Jessica, Jennifer or Jonathan has been adapted in Spanish as Yésica, Yénifer and Yónatan.
Very probably, many of those Mexican immigrants are not more Spanish speakers but of Spanglish (a mix of Spanish and English) or directly speakers of English with Spanish influence.
If they were pronouncing a Spanish name beginning with Y- with the English J-, they were simply pronouncing that not in Spanish but in English. Since the sound of the English J- doesn't exist in Spanish, the Spanish speakers adapt it as Y-, which is the more similar in their language (even being very different), and that is why some English names with J- as Jessica, Jennifer or Jonathan has been adapted in Spanish as Yésica, Yénifer and Yónatan.
Very probably, many of those Mexican immigrants are not more Spanish speakers but of Spanglish (a mix of Spanish and English) or directly speakers of English with Spanish influence.
1
I am sure you are right about the English influence on names beginning with Y, but the families I worked with were almost all Mexican-born and their primary language was Spanish. In addition, this "English j" sound (I don't know how to make IPA symbols appear here, or I would use them) was also used for the letter ll (as in llamar). I'm not an expert on Spanish pronunciation, but I think it is an oversimplification to say that the letters ll and y are always pronounced as IPA /j/ in every Spanish dialect.
This message was edited 4/20/2009, 2:30 PM
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(I also have problems with the IPA symbols.)
First at all, I never said that the letter LL is always pronounced as /j/ in every Spanish dialect, because that is not true (and, for instance, not for my dialect). The correct pronunciation of the LL is a palatal lateral approximant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_lateral_approximant
The pronunciation of the Y is a palatal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_fricative
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_approximant
depending on the context.
It is very usual in some areas (in Spain, for instance) that LL and Y are pronounced just as Y. And that is also true for Mexico:
"Yeísmo: Del mismo modo, no se diferencia la pronunciación de y y ll; ambas son una aproximante palatal sonora /j/ como la y del español estándar."
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialecto_mexicano#Fon.C3.A9tica_y_fonolog.C3.ADa
The only exception to these pronunciations is in the Rioplatense dialect (Uruguay and some areas of Argentina, as Buenos Aires), where Y and LL were pronounced with the sound of the French J (ZH) or, and this pronunciation is growing up among the young generations, with the sound of the English SH.
Perhaps they were pronouncing the palatal /j/ in the affricate allophone and to English ears that sounded as an English J (like when I hear the English vowels and distribute the sounds not like they really are but matching with my vocalic distribution).
First at all, I never said that the letter LL is always pronounced as /j/ in every Spanish dialect, because that is not true (and, for instance, not for my dialect). The correct pronunciation of the LL is a palatal lateral approximant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_lateral_approximant
The pronunciation of the Y is a palatal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_fricative
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_approximant
depending on the context.
It is very usual in some areas (in Spain, for instance) that LL and Y are pronounced just as Y. And that is also true for Mexico:
"Yeísmo: Del mismo modo, no se diferencia la pronunciación de y y ll; ambas son una aproximante palatal sonora /j/ como la y del español estándar."
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialecto_mexicano#Fon.C3.A9tica_y_fonolog.C3.ADa
The only exception to these pronunciations is in the Rioplatense dialect (Uruguay and some areas of Argentina, as Buenos Aires), where Y and LL were pronounced with the sound of the French J (ZH) or, and this pronunciation is growing up among the young generations, with the sound of the English SH.
Perhaps they were pronouncing the palatal /j/ in the affricate allophone and to English ears that sounded as an English J (like when I hear the English vowels and distribute the sounds not like they really are but matching with my vocalic distribution).
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I think that last part of Lumia's explanation is a good observation. I've noted the same thing when I'm trying to replicate a Spanish word. I think I'm saying it exactly the way the speaker does but they clearly don't agree. Then when we exaggerate the pronunciations, it is obvious that I haven't really "heard" the word properly. And sometimes I still can't say it correctly even when I can hear the difference.
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Thank you. How do you pronounce Lethe?
This message was edited 4/21/2009, 4:13 PM
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