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ArchivesRe: Meanings and associations are different. (m)
in reply to a message by Cleveland Kent Evans
So in the way we use the word "meaning" to talk about other words in everyday English, I think it is quite proper to say that Cassandra "means" "prophet of doom who is not believed". As a matter of fact, one can call someone "a Cassandra" in English with precisely that meaning.
No. When one calls someone "a Cassandra", one is making a reference to the mythological character, not using a noun that means "the characteristic associated with the mythological Cassandra".
No. When one calls someone "a Cassandra", one is making a reference to the mythological character, not using a noun that means "the characteristic associated with the mythological Cassandra".
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I must respectfully disagree. My Random House unabridged dictionary (first edition, copyright 1966) lists as the second definition of "Cassandra": "one who prophesies doom or disaster". I think that if it makes it into the dictionary one can safely say that Cassandra now has that general meaning and that English speakers can use it in that way without any direct reference to the particular Cassandra who lived in ancient Troy, in the same way that we now "go Dutch" to a restaurant without consciously realizing that was originally a reference to a particular nationality.
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It's an allusion...
And it is a direct reference to Cassandra if they use her name, although I get where you're coming from. It is a direct reference, but people may not know what it is exactly they are referring to.
I also agree with Chrisell and Array. "Cassandra" would not mean "prophet of doom" if Cassandra of Troy was named something like Jennifer, for instance. Then Jennifer, instead of Cassandra, would be listed under "prophet of doom" in the dictionary; however, Cassandra's etymological meaning would remain the same.
~♥Eirena♥~
Ruling the world isn't practical.
And it is a direct reference to Cassandra if they use her name, although I get where you're coming from. It is a direct reference, but people may not know what it is exactly they are referring to.
I also agree with Chrisell and Array. "Cassandra" would not mean "prophet of doom" if Cassandra of Troy was named something like Jennifer, for instance. Then Jennifer, instead of Cassandra, would be listed under "prophet of doom" in the dictionary; however, Cassandra's etymological meaning would remain the same.
~♥Eirena♥~
Ruling the world isn't practical.
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Maybe it's a distinction that only I make, but that's calling a person a cassandra, not a Cassandra. In the same way, the word abigail means "a woman's personal servant." When one uses the name Abigail, it certainly doesn't mean that they're calling their daughter a maid (it might not be so popular then!), because she's not an abigail. In the same way, a girl named Cassandra is only a cassandra if she happens to greet people with "You'll be hit by a bus next Monday."
Array
"What are these parents thinking?...Let's name her Madison--she'll live in her own world: 16 square miles surrounded by reality." -- Susan Lampert Smith
Array
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All I can say is that I've never seen "cassandra" written in lower case even when it is obviously being used with the general meaning. The Random House dictionary still capitalizes it under the second defintion -- just as it capitalizes "Dutch" for both the phrases "go Dutch" and "in Dutch".
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"English speakers can use it in that way without any direct reference to the particular Cassandra who lived in ancient Troy"
That doesn't make sense to me, sorry. Without the mythological Cassandra, there wouldn't be a term such as "Cassandra-like", or the use of the name as a reference to prophetic behaviour.
The fact that the dictionary has included the reference to Cassandra as a "definition" doesn't change the fact that this "definition" is actually a reference.
♦ Chrisell ♦
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. - J.R.R. Tolkien.
That doesn't make sense to me, sorry. Without the mythological Cassandra, there wouldn't be a term such as "Cassandra-like", or the use of the name as a reference to prophetic behaviour.
The fact that the dictionary has included the reference to Cassandra as a "definition" doesn't change the fact that this "definition" is actually a reference.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. - J.R.R. Tolkien.
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The myth is where the meaning comes from, but once it becomes a word in the general language so that people can understand what you mean by it even if they don't know the original myth, then it is more than just a "reference". Without the historical Mr. Boycott, there wouldn't be a word "boycott" in the dictionary, but that doesn't make "boycott" just a reference to his original story; almost no one who uses the word knows who he was any more.
But the main point I was trying to make is not about exactly how Cassandra should be presented in the dictionary. It's that it is misleading to use the word "meaning" when referring to a name's etymological origin.
But the main point I was trying to make is not about exactly how Cassandra should be presented in the dictionary. It's that it is misleading to use the word "meaning" when referring to a name's etymological origin.
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Not really... since most names don't have an actual dictionary definition, and those that do are derived from actual words or, like Cassandra, are such common allusions/references that they have come to mean what that person was. Names' "meanings" come from their base language, etc, etc, and what the names signified back when they *did* have a "dictionary definition".
Umm... sorry to butt into this argument. :S
~♥Eirena♥~
Ruling the world isn't practical.
Umm... sorry to butt into this argument. :S
~♥Eirena♥~
Ruling the world isn't practical.
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