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ArchivesLOL, Merriment! And Yahalome...
in reply to a message by Yahalome
Would you care to elaborate on exactly what those "different instructions" are, which the Jews/Muslims/Christians get from the god of the Old Testament? (Note: the Old Testament is a book shared in common with all three of these monotheistic religions.)
-- Nanaea
-- Nanaea
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Replies
Different instructions...
In the Koran, it very specifically says to kill infidels, and I can ask my dad for the reference. (We have a copy.)
In the Bible, we all know "Thou shalt not kill", and 1 John 3:15a says "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"
Muslims believe that Allah never had a son.
Christians base their beliefs on the Son of God, the Messiah.
Jews believe the Messiah hasn't come yet.Muslims' 'paradise' is a big party, with booze and women galore.
Christians 'heaven' is eternal fellowship with God and other believers, with no more pain and suffering, and no more evil.
Is that enough? I could find more.Y :)
In the Koran, it very specifically says to kill infidels, and I can ask my dad for the reference. (We have a copy.)
In the Bible, we all know "Thou shalt not kill", and 1 John 3:15a says "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"
Muslims believe that Allah never had a son.
Christians base their beliefs on the Son of God, the Messiah.
Jews believe the Messiah hasn't come yet.Muslims' 'paradise' is a big party, with booze and women galore.
Christians 'heaven' is eternal fellowship with God and other believers, with no more pain and suffering, and no more evil.
Is that enough? I could find more.Y :)
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Hmm...
Do ask your Dad for reference, because:
First: Islam rules that other "people of the Book" (i.e. Jews and Christians) are to be respected and left to worship their God. People of the Book are not considered infidels in the Koran. So, which infidels do you refer to?
Second: those who are not people of the Book are indeed considered ignorant, and are recommended to convert to Islam (the same way the Spanish conquistadors tried to convert the "savage" Native American people to the Christian faith). There is nothing in the Koran about killing them, on the contrary:
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
(surah 9, verse 6)
The fact that numerous psychos claim it's their holy duty to kill infidels (meaning Christians and Jews) does not mean it's written in the Koran.
Third: Muslims do acknowledge that Jesus is a messiah, although a lesser one than Mohammed (and they believe he was resurrected):
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
(surah 4, verse 157)
Fourth: have you seen the movie "Gandhi" with Ben Kingsley? I know it is boring, but there is a part where a bunch of Indians and an Englishman are travelling on the roof of the train. The Indians ask the English what his religion is, and upon hearing he is Christian, one of them says: "I know a Christian. He drinks blood". He sees the surprised face of the Englishman, and adds, "Yes, the blood of God, every Sunday. Don't all Christians do that?" Point in mind -- religions can be misinterpreted, misrepresented and thus - greatly misunderstood.
On a side note - how do you get in the Muslim paradise? It sounds really appealing =o)
Do ask your Dad for reference, because:
First: Islam rules that other "people of the Book" (i.e. Jews and Christians) are to be respected and left to worship their God. People of the Book are not considered infidels in the Koran. So, which infidels do you refer to?
Second: those who are not people of the Book are indeed considered ignorant, and are recommended to convert to Islam (the same way the Spanish conquistadors tried to convert the "savage" Native American people to the Christian faith). There is nothing in the Koran about killing them, on the contrary:
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
(surah 9, verse 6)
The fact that numerous psychos claim it's their holy duty to kill infidels (meaning Christians and Jews) does not mean it's written in the Koran.
Third: Muslims do acknowledge that Jesus is a messiah, although a lesser one than Mohammed (and they believe he was resurrected):
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
(surah 4, verse 157)
Fourth: have you seen the movie "Gandhi" with Ben Kingsley? I know it is boring, but there is a part where a bunch of Indians and an Englishman are travelling on the roof of the train. The Indians ask the English what his religion is, and upon hearing he is Christian, one of them says: "I know a Christian. He drinks blood". He sees the surprised face of the Englishman, and adds, "Yes, the blood of God, every Sunday. Don't all Christians do that?" Point in mind -- religions can be misinterpreted, misrepresented and thus - greatly misunderstood.
On a side note - how do you get in the Muslim paradise? It sounds really appealing =o)
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Ivayla, references:
Look up Surah 2:190-193, 244; Surah 9:29, 123; Surah 47:4.
Our copy is lent out, and my dad hadn't memorized it, cause he said there were so many, so I looked it up in the library. I didn't have time to write them all down, but I got several.
Y :)
Look up Surah 2:190-193, 244; Surah 9:29, 123; Surah 47:4.
Our copy is lent out, and my dad hadn't memorized it, cause he said there were so many, so I looked it up in the library. I didn't have time to write them all down, but I got several.
Y :)
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We should really close the topic, but here goes:
2:244 And fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Fight for what? Against who? Simply "fight" does not mean "kill infidels."
As I said before, indoubtedly there will be zealots (of all religions) who will INTERPRET that to mean "kill Christians/Jews/Israelis/unmarried girls who show their face in public," etc, but that is not the Koran's fault.
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Again: fight does not mean "kill." "Those who have been given the Book" are the Christians and the Jews, and they are obviously exempt. The rest should also be fought until they start diligently paying taxes and mind their own business (which means they should preferrably stay alive and well, so they can work).
47:4 So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
The key words: meet in battle. Also, "make them prisoners" and either "set them free" or "let them ransom themselves" implies they have to be alive.
So, where is the ~chant~ "kill the infidels!" ~chant~ part?
2:244 And fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Fight for what? Against who? Simply "fight" does not mean "kill infidels."
As I said before, indoubtedly there will be zealots (of all religions) who will INTERPRET that to mean "kill Christians/Jews/Israelis/unmarried girls who show their face in public," etc, but that is not the Koran's fault.
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Again: fight does not mean "kill." "Those who have been given the Book" are the Christians and the Jews, and they are obviously exempt. The rest should also be fought until they start diligently paying taxes and mind their own business (which means they should preferrably stay alive and well, so they can work).
47:4 So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
The key words: meet in battle. Also, "make them prisoners" and either "set them free" or "let them ransom themselves" implies they have to be alive.
So, where is the ~chant~ "kill the infidels!" ~chant~ part?
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One more...
"God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable."
Quoted from the Qur’an, 60:8
-- Nanaea
"God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable."
Quoted from the Qur’an, 60:8
-- Nanaea
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Closing...
OK, some of those I didn't read close enough, my mom was getting impatient. However, in the translation I looked up at the library, there were notes on almost all of those, like after "those who do not believe in Allah..." they added, "(Jews and Christians)". Maybe not after that particular phrase, but one pretty similar. Anyway, fight certainly does imply kill at least some of 'em. Well, I'll wind it up now.
Y :)
Off-topic P.S.: We got leetle baby chicks! Ten of them!! :D :D :D
OK, some of those I didn't read close enough, my mom was getting impatient. However, in the translation I looked up at the library, there were notes on almost all of those, like after "those who do not believe in Allah..." they added, "(Jews and Christians)". Maybe not after that particular phrase, but one pretty similar. Anyway, fight certainly does imply kill at least some of 'em. Well, I'll wind it up now.
Y :)
Off-topic P.S.: We got leetle baby chicks! Ten of them!! :D :D :D
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That's why the Qu'ran is not supposed to be translated from Arabic :).
Congrats for the chicks!
Congrats for the chicks!
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Well, you get props for going to your public library to find out things on your own. :)
I dunno if you might have occasion to encounter many (or any) Muslims out there in Oregon (?) and perhaps learn firsthand what they do and do not believe in. But perhaps when you go off to college you may. You appear to be a bright girl with an inquisitive mind -- I expect your views may change with time.
Congratulations on the baby chicks. :)
-- Nanaea
I dunno if you might have occasion to encounter many (or any) Muslims out there in Oregon (?) and perhaps learn firsthand what they do and do not believe in. But perhaps when you go off to college you may. You appear to be a bright girl with an inquisitive mind -- I expect your views may change with time.
Congratulations on the baby chicks. :)
-- Nanaea
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You just don't stop, do you?
Surah 2:190
"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress. Allah does not love the transgressors."
The operative phrase here is: THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU.
You know, there are people who deliberately zero in on certain passages in the Christian Bible to show what's "wrong" with Christianity.
One passage which some might deign to point out is Luke 14:26
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
No doubt a Christian would explain this passage by saying that Jesus was not literally exhorting people to HATE! HATE! HATE! their parents, their spouses, and their own children, in order to prove their love of Jesus.
But the point is this: If you want to give the appearance of being ignorant about someone else's religion, you can always quote passages from their holy book out of context, and with a smug literal-mindedness which prohibits the zealous quoter from grasping the entire scope of the work.
-- Nanaea
Surah 2:190
"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress. Allah does not love the transgressors."
The operative phrase here is: THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU.
You know, there are people who deliberately zero in on certain passages in the Christian Bible to show what's "wrong" with Christianity.
One passage which some might deign to point out is Luke 14:26
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
No doubt a Christian would explain this passage by saying that Jesus was not literally exhorting people to HATE! HATE! HATE! their parents, their spouses, and their own children, in order to prove their love of Jesus.
But the point is this: If you want to give the appearance of being ignorant about someone else's religion, you can always quote passages from their holy book out of context, and with a smug literal-mindedness which prohibits the zealous quoter from grasping the entire scope of the work.
-- Nanaea
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> how do you get in the Muslim paradise? It sounds really appealing =o)
There are three ways to get to Muslim paradise, and I list them in order of increasing attractiveness:
1. To die for Islam in a religious war. Paradise is guaranteed! Ouch, this is not my cup of tea...
2. To lead the life of a virtuous and good Muslim. Boring, but least your head remains attached to your body. Not too different a lifestyle from being a good Christian or Jew, "burka" notwithstanding.
3. Now here is my favorite catch: If as a Muslim you manage to convert at least *one* person to Islam, you are granted the bonus of having *all* your earthy sins forgiven *and* win a place in paradise to boot! In other words a life *and* an afterlife of fun and naughtiness are guaranteed! Oh yes, if I were to ever become a religious fanatic, Islam would be my first choice -- purely on the basis of option # 3 :)))
There are three ways to get to Muslim paradise, and I list them in order of increasing attractiveness:
1. To die for Islam in a religious war. Paradise is guaranteed! Ouch, this is not my cup of tea...
2. To lead the life of a virtuous and good Muslim. Boring, but least your head remains attached to your body. Not too different a lifestyle from being a good Christian or Jew, "burka" notwithstanding.
3. Now here is my favorite catch: If as a Muslim you manage to convert at least *one* person to Islam, you are granted the bonus of having *all* your earthy sins forgiven *and* win a place in paradise to boot! In other words a life *and* an afterlife of fun and naughtiness are guaranteed! Oh yes, if I were to ever become a religious fanatic, Islam would be my first choice -- purely on the basis of option # 3 :)))
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Thanks Pavlos! It looks like you have thought about that too. If I convert to Islam, do you mind converting under my influence ;) n/t?
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"People of the Book are not considered infidels in the Koran. So, which infidels do you refer to?"
True. And it should also be noted that Muslim clergy far more often tend to issue fatwahs (religious rulings) against other *Muslims* who have blasphemed against Allah, than they do against non-Muslims.
And as for the Bible saying "Thou shalt not kill", the passage is more often (and properly) translated as "Thou shalt not murder". There is a difference between killing and murder, as any soldier knows. In addition, this poor world has seen more than its share of Christian soldiers marching onward into battle, whether it be the Crusades of the past, or the Christian Right's overwhelming support of the death penalty today.
-- Nanaea
True. And it should also be noted that Muslim clergy far more often tend to issue fatwahs (religious rulings) against other *Muslims* who have blasphemed against Allah, than they do against non-Muslims.
And as for the Bible saying "Thou shalt not kill", the passage is more often (and properly) translated as "Thou shalt not murder". There is a difference between killing and murder, as any soldier knows. In addition, this poor world has seen more than its share of Christian soldiers marching onward into battle, whether it be the Crusades of the past, or the Christian Right's overwhelming support of the death penalty today.
-- Nanaea
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You are confusing the "instructions" in the Old Testament with additional dogma of other religions. And also...
All three religions -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- hold that that the Old Testament is a holy book and the "word of god".
Members of all three relgions (not excluding your own, Christianity) frequently violate the code of ethics which is presented by the god of the Old Testament.
To say to a Jew or to a Muslim: your god is merely an "idol", not only denies the god of the Old Testament (which is also the god of the Christians, Jesus notwithstanding) but is also an extremely offensive and bigoted statement to make.
Yahalome, my dear, Christians do not have the exclusive ear of god, despite what the head of the Southern Baptist Convention, Bailey Smith, stated in 1987: "God almighty doesn’t hear the prayer of a Jew." (Y'all haven't come too far in 16 years, have ya?)
Of course, I personally believe that you ALL (Muslims, Jews, Christians, whatever) are silly buggers with your religious superstitions, religious prejudices, and religious rivalries.
But the silliest -- the most *contemptible* -- ones of all are the ones who claim that god listens to them, alone.
-- Nanaea
All three religions -- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- hold that that the Old Testament is a holy book and the "word of god".
Members of all three relgions (not excluding your own, Christianity) frequently violate the code of ethics which is presented by the god of the Old Testament.
To say to a Jew or to a Muslim: your god is merely an "idol", not only denies the god of the Old Testament (which is also the god of the Christians, Jesus notwithstanding) but is also an extremely offensive and bigoted statement to make.
Yahalome, my dear, Christians do not have the exclusive ear of god, despite what the head of the Southern Baptist Convention, Bailey Smith, stated in 1987: "God almighty doesn’t hear the prayer of a Jew." (Y'all haven't come too far in 16 years, have ya?)
Of course, I personally believe that you ALL (Muslims, Jews, Christians, whatever) are silly buggers with your religious superstitions, religious prejudices, and religious rivalries.
But the silliest -- the most *contemptible* -- ones of all are the ones who claim that god listens to them, alone.
-- Nanaea
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I agree wholeheartedly with Nanaea that Judaism, Christianity and Islam share the same God (call him Jehovah, Allah, or what have you) and the same lineage, founded by Abraham. Although I personally respect all religions, I find it futile to converse with anyone who believes he/she holds the whole truth and tries to convert/save me.
I personally was raised as a Christian Orthodox, but became quite disillusioned with monotheism. I find polytheism -- i.e. the pluralistic existence of forces in nature -- much closer to my philosophical and political outlook. I also feel that monotheism (i.e. the belief in only *one* truth) has lent a philosophical alibi to many murderers and tyrannical ideologies and has caused undue bloodshed throughout history.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the bickering children of the same one God. I personally hold Judaism above the other two religions for one only reason: it minds its own business and does not care about sharing its truth by converting other people.
I personally was raised as a Christian Orthodox, but became quite disillusioned with monotheism. I find polytheism -- i.e. the pluralistic existence of forces in nature -- much closer to my philosophical and political outlook. I also feel that monotheism (i.e. the belief in only *one* truth) has lent a philosophical alibi to many murderers and tyrannical ideologies and has caused undue bloodshed throughout history.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the bickering children of the same one God. I personally hold Judaism above the other two religions for one only reason: it minds its own business and does not care about sharing its truth by converting other people.
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Ditto, and...
I can only admire religious people (at least those who don't do stupid things in the name of religion) for their ability to sit around and calmly wait God/Allah/Jehovah to grant them happiness, luck, or a good job. Personally, I believe I am making the deity (or all three of them) a favor by sparing him/her/it from the need to write out my destiny for me.
I can only admire religious people (at least those who don't do stupid things in the name of religion) for their ability to sit around and calmly wait God/Allah/Jehovah to grant them happiness, luck, or a good job. Personally, I believe I am making the deity (or all three of them) a favor by sparing him/her/it from the need to write out my destiny for me.
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Well said, Pavlos. And I give you props for respecting other people's beliefs.
I, myself, am frequently not so respectful. In fact, I'll admit that I can be downright offensive when it comes to dealing with Christian proselytizers (otherwise known as "Christian botherers").
Yahalome, I know I said it's "offensive" for one to say to a Jew or to a Muslim that their god is merely an "idol" compared to the Christian god. I wish to amend that by saying that such a statement is not only offensive, but downright stupid.
Quite frankly, I've had enough of hearing how Mike C. needs to correct certain data-base entries because *you* take offense at reading Catholic doctrine. I've also had enough of your other little digs against people of other faiths. I ain't a champion for other religions, don't get me wrong, but I *am* getting pretty damn tired of the Christian nagging that's been going on around here lately.
From now on, it's jihad, bay-bee.
-- Nanaea
I, myself, am frequently not so respectful. In fact, I'll admit that I can be downright offensive when it comes to dealing with Christian proselytizers (otherwise known as "Christian botherers").
Yahalome, I know I said it's "offensive" for one to say to a Jew or to a Muslim that their god is merely an "idol" compared to the Christian god. I wish to amend that by saying that such a statement is not only offensive, but downright stupid.
Quite frankly, I've had enough of hearing how Mike C. needs to correct certain data-base entries because *you* take offense at reading Catholic doctrine. I've also had enough of your other little digs against people of other faiths. I ain't a champion for other religions, don't get me wrong, but I *am* getting pretty damn tired of the Christian nagging that's been going on around here lately.
From now on, it's jihad, bay-bee.
-- Nanaea
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Sorry, Nan, if I've been too off-topic too many times. I'll try to curtail it somewhat. It's just that what with misunderstandings, 'Christian cults', false Christians, and foolish/weak/just plain idiotic Christians, a lot of ppl have a really wierd conception of us, which drives me crazy. But you also must realize that it's part of my beliefs to try to win converts, and I personally thing it's the greatest thing in the world so of course I want to share.
Y :)
Y :)
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"Sharing"
There is nothing wrong with "sharing" one's beliefs. A lot of times we get into off-topic conversations here, and the information imparted can be both interesting and entertaining.
What is wrong is when a person with his or her own agenda chooses to seize upon every opportunity to push that agenda and "preach" to others. I'm not just talking about your denigrating non-Christian beliefs here in order to show Christianity in what you perceive to be a better light. It was neither necessary nor appropriate for you to jump in on a conversation between Phyllis and me back in December when Phyllis was playfully wishing me a "cursed" holiday season, and for you to pipe up with: "Hear the wise! The dif is blessed = kind, etc.; cursed = mean, hurting, etc. Good ppl bless, evil ppl curse. A CHRISTian."
That was childish of you, but I cut you slack back then in consideration of the fact that you're a sixteen-year-old and, basically, still a child. Although I will say that I find your apology here to be quite mature. I also otherwise enjoy your postings and find your comments on names to be interesting and intelligent.
You've mentioned a few times on this board that you find it personally embarrassing when Christians behave foolishly, idiotically, etc. In your reply to Rena on April 11th, you wrote: "I hate it when ppl like this give non-Christians a reason to laugh at us!!!!!!!"
Take care that you don't become "ppl like this".
-- Nanaea
There is nothing wrong with "sharing" one's beliefs. A lot of times we get into off-topic conversations here, and the information imparted can be both interesting and entertaining.
What is wrong is when a person with his or her own agenda chooses to seize upon every opportunity to push that agenda and "preach" to others. I'm not just talking about your denigrating non-Christian beliefs here in order to show Christianity in what you perceive to be a better light. It was neither necessary nor appropriate for you to jump in on a conversation between Phyllis and me back in December when Phyllis was playfully wishing me a "cursed" holiday season, and for you to pipe up with: "Hear the wise! The dif is blessed = kind, etc.; cursed = mean, hurting, etc. Good ppl bless, evil ppl curse. A CHRISTian."
That was childish of you, but I cut you slack back then in consideration of the fact that you're a sixteen-year-old and, basically, still a child. Although I will say that I find your apology here to be quite mature. I also otherwise enjoy your postings and find your comments on names to be interesting and intelligent.
You've mentioned a few times on this board that you find it personally embarrassing when Christians behave foolishly, idiotically, etc. In your reply to Rena on April 11th, you wrote: "I hate it when ppl like this give non-Christians a reason to laugh at us!!!!!!!"
Take care that you don't become "ppl like this".
-- Nanaea
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Any organized religion is to spirituality what pornography is to love. I have nothing really against pornography, but I prefer the real thing :P
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The Name Behind
The name behind "organised religion" is "Glorinie Grandiose".
grandiose. adj. Characterized by feigned or affected grandeur; pompous.
-- Nanaea
The name behind "organised religion" is "Glorinie Grandiose".
grandiose. adj. Characterized by feigned or affected grandeur; pompous.
-- Nanaea
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