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ArchivesRe: Does Melvin come from Maethelwine
in reply to a message by EncyclopediaBrown
The problem with such a derivation is the consonant /v/ in Melvin—the Germanic name element WIN should show up with a /w/ in English.
The book you quote is not really exact, the author put more effort in finding proverbs and Bible verses to each name than in exact etymologies. I found a lot of sloppy etymologies and even wrong claims (like berl German "swamp" in the the explanation of Berlin). Also the quoted websites aren't striving for the highest quality.
The btn database agrees with high-quality sources like Patrick Hanks, Kate Hardcastle, and Flavia Hodges 'A Dictionary of First Names (2 ed.) '. I see no reason to change this entry.
--elbowin
The book you quote is not really exact, the author put more effort in finding proverbs and Bible verses to each name than in exact etymologies. I found a lot of sloppy etymologies and even wrong claims (like berl German "swamp" in the the explanation of Berlin). Also the quoted websites aren't striving for the highest quality.
The btn database agrees with high-quality sources like Patrick Hanks, Kate Hardcastle, and Flavia Hodges 'A Dictionary of First Names (2 ed.) '. I see no reason to change this entry.
--elbowin
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Replies
Please know that I am not suggesting to change the entry in the database, I'm only asking a question. I'm sorry if it appeared that I was suggesting that.
Thank you for clarifying about the book, and I know these websites are not searching for highest quality, but I thought that there may be a reliable source where the websites found their information that someone on these message boards may have known of, since it was a commonly cited origin for Melvin.
I looked at the book you cited, the Hanks, Hardcastle and Hodges one, and it says that Melvin is of "uncertain origin but probably from Melville".
I'm definitely not disputing that Melvin comes from Melville, but when I asked the question, I wondered if Maethelwine was a second way Melvin had been derived too.
On the /v/ /w/ discrepancy, in Old English, yes, thank you, you're correct, the element WINE would appear with a /w/, such as when Edwin is derived from Eadwine. So yes, I see that it was not derived from Old English Maethelwine. However, what about a possible Germanic form Mathalwin, derived from the elements "mathal" and "win"? In German, this would be pronounced as "MAH-thəl-vin". Could Melvin have been derived phonetically from that in English?
Edit: As I did further research, I noticed that the name Alvin is listed on btn to derive from "a medieval form of any of the Old English names Ælfwine, Æðelwine or Ealdwine", all of which have the Old English element WINE in the latter part. So, this is an example of a name from Old English where the element WINE evolved into "vin". So, in the way that Alvin derived from these names, could Melvin have derived from Maethelwine?
Again, I'm not suggesting to change the current database entry for Melvin, only asking whether this is a possible etymology or not. Thank you for your help.
Thank you for clarifying about the book, and I know these websites are not searching for highest quality, but I thought that there may be a reliable source where the websites found their information that someone on these message boards may have known of, since it was a commonly cited origin for Melvin.
I looked at the book you cited, the Hanks, Hardcastle and Hodges one, and it says that Melvin is of "uncertain origin but probably from Melville".
I'm definitely not disputing that Melvin comes from Melville, but when I asked the question, I wondered if Maethelwine was a second way Melvin had been derived too.
On the /v/ /w/ discrepancy, in Old English, yes, thank you, you're correct, the element WINE would appear with a /w/, such as when Edwin is derived from Eadwine. So yes, I see that it was not derived from Old English Maethelwine. However, what about a possible Germanic form Mathalwin, derived from the elements "mathal" and "win"? In German, this would be pronounced as "MAH-thəl-vin". Could Melvin have been derived phonetically from that in English?
Edit: As I did further research, I noticed that the name Alvin is listed on btn to derive from "a medieval form of any of the Old English names Ælfwine, Æðelwine or Ealdwine", all of which have the Old English element WINE in the latter part. So, this is an example of a name from Old English where the element WINE evolved into "vin". So, in the way that Alvin derived from these names, could Melvin have derived from Maethelwine?
Again, I'm not suggesting to change the current database entry for Melvin, only asking whether this is a possible etymology or not. Thank you for your help.
This message was edited 5/14/2019, 3:21 AM
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The Germanic name Mathalwin is definitely attested and existed in medieval times in Germany (I have no data on Old English nor Old Norse at my hands, it is not in the Domesday book and all names starting in Madal- currently on dmnes.org are Germanic names from today's France). However, some connection to Melvin must be made (either by continuous use and survival in some local pockets, by being the name of a saint, or by revival in a literary work). We need to find the missing link or we are stuck here.
And than, there is the unrelated name Malvina introduced by James MacPherson. And another unrelated, but similar sounding name is the Spanish term for the Falkland Islands: Islas Malvinas. The archipelago is named after the French harbour St. Malo.
--elbowin
And than, there is the unrelated name Malvina introduced by James MacPherson. And another unrelated, but similar sounding name is the Spanish term for the Falkland Islands: Islas Malvinas. The archipelago is named after the French harbour St. Malo.
--elbowin
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I'm glad to hear that Mathalwin existed. I thought that possibly the name Mathalwin was contracted at the time that many Old English and Germanic names were simplified from their original forms, I think around the time of the Norman conquest. I figured if it was simplified, it seems like it would likely be turned into Malvin or Melvin. I can't see any other ways that Mathalwin could be contracted and still keep the same elements intact.
Nevertheless, all of that is just speculation, there's no way to prove it at the moment. It seems to me like it may still be a possibility that Melvin was at one point derived from Mathalwin in certain regions, but no way to know for sure yet. What do you think?
Thanks for the extra links too! That's some really interesting information about Malvina and the Falkland islands. I found out that Saint Malo's name came from the Breton elements "mach" meaning "pledge, hostage, warrant" and "loh" meaning "light, brilliant, bright, beautiful". From the definitions of the elements that make it up, it seems that it's also a Breton translation of the Germanic Gilbert.
Nevertheless, all of that is just speculation, there's no way to prove it at the moment. It seems to me like it may still be a possibility that Melvin was at one point derived from Mathalwin in certain regions, but no way to know for sure yet. What do you think?
Thanks for the extra links too! That's some really interesting information about Malvina and the Falkland islands. I found out that Saint Malo's name came from the Breton elements "mach" meaning "pledge, hostage, warrant" and "loh" meaning "light, brilliant, bright, beautiful". From the definitions of the elements that make it up, it seems that it's also a Breton translation of the Germanic Gilbert.
This message was edited 5/15/2019, 12:48 AM
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English/Scots Mæðelwine to Melvin certainly follows the pattern of Latinisation in the late Imperial/Frankish period. |ð| and |þ| would become |d/t| or be syncopated altogether (since it's a difficult and unusual phoneme that does not occur in the Latin and early Romance languages of the period, nor in the Southern Germanic languages, and isn't consistently found in all Greek dialects, some of which have |f| instead - it's no coincidence that it occurs in both the English and Welsh languages however, the latter with different orthography). Latin "v", representing allophones of |u| including a phoneme close to |w| in classical Latin, split into the familiar |v| and |u| from the 2nd Century, and spread North into the Germanic languages (excluding English and a few Swedish dialects). Melvin isn't so much a shortening, as a plausible Latin pronunciation.
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This was really informative, and I'm glad to learn this information. Thanks thegriffon!
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