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HelpQuestion about names and cultures
I'm sorry if this has been asked recently. I thought I saw something like it so I scrolled down the page and did a search but I can't seem to find anything. Anyways, I want to ask a question that I've been thinking of for...years, must be, but never really had the courage to ask. It's sort of like those questions about "can you use a name from any culture", but directed towards all of the people who are of a culture that isn't "American" (religious cultures included-American people can answer also. I'd really like to know what fellow Americans think of my theory.).
I have a theory and it may very well be wrong (and I hope I word this right, because I don't want to offend anyone), but I've always wondered if why people who are American say that anyone can grab and use a name from any culture at any time is because we sort of have a "buffet" culture, where you take what you want and leave the rest? Do you know what I mean? Or maybe it's because an awful lot of us grow up without a real sense of a "mother" culture? I know I'm not speaking for everyone here, but I personally grew up in a family that didn't pay much attention to its heritage at all, so if I were to see someone who was obviously not German or not Slovakian walking around with a name like Ladislava (or whatever) I wouldn't feel like that was weird at all. Whereas I wonder if a person who grew up in a very close Jewish or Armenian family would find it weird to meet a very not-Jewish or not-Armenian Keturah or Anoush. Do you know what I mean? I hear a lot of "it doesn't matter what culture you're from, you can use any name you want", but I wonder if that opinion holds with everyone, or even the majority.
I hope I didn't word that wrong and end up offending anyone.
I have a theory and it may very well be wrong (and I hope I word this right, because I don't want to offend anyone), but I've always wondered if why people who are American say that anyone can grab and use a name from any culture at any time is because we sort of have a "buffet" culture, where you take what you want and leave the rest? Do you know what I mean? Or maybe it's because an awful lot of us grow up without a real sense of a "mother" culture? I know I'm not speaking for everyone here, but I personally grew up in a family that didn't pay much attention to its heritage at all, so if I were to see someone who was obviously not German or not Slovakian walking around with a name like Ladislava (or whatever) I wouldn't feel like that was weird at all. Whereas I wonder if a person who grew up in a very close Jewish or Armenian family would find it weird to meet a very not-Jewish or not-Armenian Keturah or Anoush. Do you know what I mean? I hear a lot of "it doesn't matter what culture you're from, you can use any name you want", but I wonder if that opinion holds with everyone, or even the majority.
I hope I didn't word that wrong and end up offending anyone.
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I just replied to Rachel Shaina about Japanese names - I like some but would feel wrong using them. I feel like this makes me a hypocrite. (Apologies if this is the 543765th time I've mentioned this, but it's relevant to the topic.)
I hate my FN and had no MN, and wanted to change it but avoid a family feud, so I chose a MN and go by that outside the family. I love my mother, but I never felt the name she gave me fit me. I had chosen a name well before the change - Fiammetta. I can't explain it but it just felt right for me. I have no regrets, but I'm afraid people are going to judge me for choosing a name outside my culture. I am Portuguese and French-Canadian, my maiden name was Portuguese, and when I got married (after the name change) I took my husband's German Jewish surname. On top of all that, my first name is made up (my mom found it in a name book). At the very least I have heritage on the same continent (as opposed to Japan) and I did this to myself, not a child. I know that those are not good excuses, but the reasons for changing my name - specifically to Fiammetta - are very personal.
I don't care what people name their children, provided the name is not harmful to the child (i.e. incorporating hate speech, etc).
I hate my FN and had no MN, and wanted to change it but avoid a family feud, so I chose a MN and go by that outside the family. I love my mother, but I never felt the name she gave me fit me. I had chosen a name well before the change - Fiammetta. I can't explain it but it just felt right for me. I have no regrets, but I'm afraid people are going to judge me for choosing a name outside my culture. I am Portuguese and French-Canadian, my maiden name was Portuguese, and when I got married (after the name change) I took my husband's German Jewish surname. On top of all that, my first name is made up (my mom found it in a name book). At the very least I have heritage on the same continent (as opposed to Japan) and I did this to myself, not a child. I know that those are not good excuses, but the reasons for changing my name - specifically to Fiammetta - are very personal.
I don't care what people name their children, provided the name is not harmful to the child (i.e. incorporating hate speech, etc).
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Who's to say what's a good excuse? I think your new name is pretty damn awesome, and I wish I had your guts. I hope people don't judge you for it, just like I hope people won't think it's awfully weird that a Pagan is choosing to name herself Eve. You really can't help which name is right.
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Heh, thanks. I don't think that's weird at all. Eve is nice, and lots of biblical names are used by people who aren't Jewish or Christian. There are many I like, and I'm agnostic. I would wonder about a name like Zion, Genesis, or Heaven, but I'm not going to tell people what names they can and can't use.
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I grew in DC so it was truly a multicultural environment - my dad made it so. A lot of my friends were from the embassies and what-not. People did stay within their own cultural groups but we did mix.
As for using any name that you want...Idk. I want names to reflect our background and beliefs. I wouldn't use Omar, because it would be rather odd in our family. At the same time I wouldn't use Mick despite having an Irish last name - I'm not Irish. But I have no problem at all using Jewish / Hebrew names - probably because I respect the religion so much. Miriam / Leah / Judith are also Old Testament Christian names, so that helps as well. (My family is very Baptist and tends to use Biblical names)
It's an odd thing to think about. My husband loves that name Raphael but too me it's almost too Catholic - which I'm not. I converted but it still feels somewhat false to my background. And I really dislike 'snooty' names like Sebastian - I'm far from snooty. (My parents were upper middle class, however they both came from working class homes. My husband and I are very much lower middle-class)
I suppose my answer is: Names are not really a buffet for me. I'm never surprised, though, when I meet a non-Jewish Keturah, though. I went to school with a very white Bahar. My nephew went to school with a non-Russian Alyosha. So while I wouldn't personally do it I know plenty of other people who do and I'm not surprised. I think it really comes from growing up in DC and having my dad expose me to so many cultures. I see the need for the culture, the need for a safe spot and I respect it. That's why I'd readily use an Jewish name - because I'm familiar with the culture and love it - but not so much the name Omar. I'm not familiar with cultures that use Omar and therefore it would be odd.
I rambled, hope this makes sense.
As for using any name that you want...Idk. I want names to reflect our background and beliefs. I wouldn't use Omar, because it would be rather odd in our family. At the same time I wouldn't use Mick despite having an Irish last name - I'm not Irish. But I have no problem at all using Jewish / Hebrew names - probably because I respect the religion so much. Miriam / Leah / Judith are also Old Testament Christian names, so that helps as well. (My family is very Baptist and tends to use Biblical names)
It's an odd thing to think about. My husband loves that name Raphael but too me it's almost too Catholic - which I'm not. I converted but it still feels somewhat false to my background. And I really dislike 'snooty' names like Sebastian - I'm far from snooty. (My parents were upper middle class, however they both came from working class homes. My husband and I are very much lower middle-class)
I suppose my answer is: Names are not really a buffet for me. I'm never surprised, though, when I meet a non-Jewish Keturah, though. I went to school with a very white Bahar. My nephew went to school with a non-Russian Alyosha. So while I wouldn't personally do it I know plenty of other people who do and I'm not surprised. I think it really comes from growing up in DC and having my dad expose me to so many cultures. I see the need for the culture, the need for a safe spot and I respect it. That's why I'd readily use an Jewish name - because I'm familiar with the culture and love it - but not so much the name Omar. I'm not familiar with cultures that use Omar and therefore it would be odd.
I rambled, hope this makes sense.
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Was Bahar Persian or Turkish? This may be hard for some people to believe, but many Persians and Turks look very white. I've known Turkish people with lighter skin than me!
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It does make sense. From most of the posts in this thread it seems to boil down to it's ok to use a name from a different culture if you have a decent connection to / amount of knowledge of the culture and can make an informed decision (rather than just because you like it). Thank you for your answer and for your post below about Fargo. They're both really interesting. It's sad how formidable racial barriers can really be.
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It really doesn't bother me. I know a Mexican girl who recently named her son Shia, and a white girl who named her daughter Avani. Who cares?
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Such was my question! Who cares? Does anyone? I'm sure some people do. But after this thread I feel pretty certain that most of us don't, or do only to a degree.
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--can you use a name from any culture",
Yes, I live in America too, Wisconsin as well, mostly German, Norwegian, English (Some from London area in 1667 Ad ish)Scottish, Irish, Native American, kind of a mixture of ancestors, I was born in Minnesota, so alot of polish people are around as well. The main culture is a mixture, so i too feel i don't have a culture cause we didn't really have any traditions in our family. maybe I'll have to invent some traditions,cause that is the type of person that i am. Anyway I got off topic, Names are important to people, but i think people worry too much about what others think...
--why people who are American say that anyone can grab and use a name from any culture at any time is because we sort of have a "buffet" culture, where you take what you want and leave the rest? Depends on the person , some people feel the need to actually use the freedom they got, freedom -you either use it or lose it in my opinion..I personally don't think it's weird for a white kid to be name Tanika or Barvara, people might see it as weird, but they shouldn't get offended, they should feel honored in my opinion....i see what you mean, other cultures might see it differntly, sorry if i rambled,
Yes, I live in America too, Wisconsin as well, mostly German, Norwegian, English (Some from London area in 1667 Ad ish)Scottish, Irish, Native American, kind of a mixture of ancestors, I was born in Minnesota, so alot of polish people are around as well. The main culture is a mixture, so i too feel i don't have a culture cause we didn't really have any traditions in our family. maybe I'll have to invent some traditions,cause that is the type of person that i am. Anyway I got off topic, Names are important to people, but i think people worry too much about what others think...
--why people who are American say that anyone can grab and use a name from any culture at any time is because we sort of have a "buffet" culture, where you take what you want and leave the rest? Depends on the person , some people feel the need to actually use the freedom they got, freedom -you either use it or lose it in my opinion..I personally don't think it's weird for a white kid to be name Tanika or Barvara, people might see it as weird, but they shouldn't get offended, they should feel honored in my opinion....i see what you mean, other cultures might see it differntly, sorry if i rambled,
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Not rambling, I get what you mean. I think you have a very nice opinion about it. To be honored is a nice reaction. Much better than being offended. I wish people would feel that way generally. People do worry too much about what others think. It's difficult to find the line between spineless and considerate, I suppose.
I'll probably be inventing some traditions as well. Three cheers for being the kind of person that you are!
I'll probably be inventing some traditions as well. Three cheers for being the kind of person that you are!
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I guess... I don't know. I'm totally okay with using names from other cultures, but I feel like I have a limit.
Like, I really like Ai and Mio, Japanese names. I wouldn't use them as first names, though. And I wouldn't feel comfortable using something like Matsumoto or Akutagawa, something where it's long and feels completely foreign. If that makes sense? Like to me, it has to sort of feel familiar. I'd use Parisa but not Parastoo, you know?
(Though, I guess if I actually liked more complicated foreign names, it'd be different? HM. This is kind of complicated. I think ultimately I'm not afraid of borrowing from other cultures.)
I can't imagine how, say, a Japanese person, would feel if I did give a daughter Mio as a first name, because I do agree with your feeling of not relating to a particular culture.
Any kid of mine is going to be a walking buffet anyway. Like their surname will be Irish and mine is German and my mom's maiden name was made up and my Grandma's maiden name is Polish. Look, four generations of people and all of their surnames are of different origins, what is that.
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I don't really like when people pick names from "their" culture just because it's their culture, though. Americans, I mean. Like, my boyfriend is like "oh what about an Irish name" because his family is very proud of their Irishness, so I pulled up BTN and went to like Caoimhe or something and was like "Ok, can you pronounce this one? Because if you want an Irish name we're using a real Irish name and not Ryan or something."
Like, I really like Ai and Mio, Japanese names. I wouldn't use them as first names, though. And I wouldn't feel comfortable using something like Matsumoto or Akutagawa, something where it's long and feels completely foreign. If that makes sense? Like to me, it has to sort of feel familiar. I'd use Parisa but not Parastoo, you know?
(Though, I guess if I actually liked more complicated foreign names, it'd be different? HM. This is kind of complicated. I think ultimately I'm not afraid of borrowing from other cultures.)
I can't imagine how, say, a Japanese person, would feel if I did give a daughter Mio as a first name, because I do agree with your feeling of not relating to a particular culture.
Any kid of mine is going to be a walking buffet anyway. Like their surname will be Irish and mine is German and my mom's maiden name was made up and my Grandma's maiden name is Polish. Look, four generations of people and all of their surnames are of different origins, what is that.
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I don't really like when people pick names from "their" culture just because it's their culture, though. Americans, I mean. Like, my boyfriend is like "oh what about an Irish name" because his family is very proud of their Irishness, so I pulled up BTN and went to like Caoimhe or something and was like "Ok, can you pronounce this one? Because if you want an Irish name we're using a real Irish name and not Ryan or something."
This message was edited 7/17/2011, 8:46 AM
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I know exactly what you mean about the Japanese names. My husband once said that one of his favorites is Miyuki and he wanted to use it for a daughter if we have one. I rather like the name, but it'd feel wrong to me. I wouldn't want people to think we're crazy anime fans who named our kid after a character or something (especially since we do like anime, but we're not crazy, I think).
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I've always admired the boldness of your name choices (my polite and slightly reserved way of saying that your combos are awesome and interesting). I think I understand what you mean. Something that translates easily is a more understandable choice than something that doesn't.
I agree with using a real name from a culture if you're going to use a name from that culture at all. Caoimhe beats Ryan in my book any day.
I agree with using a real name from a culture if you're going to use a name from that culture at all. Caoimhe beats Ryan in my book any day.
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Let me start by giving a bit of background. I'm American. My mom is German. My grandmother is German. I have pretty strong German ties and most of my family still lives there. I also have strong Swiss ties on my dad's side, but not as much as the German, as I have no living relatives in Switzerland.
Anyway, I don't really find it weird if non-Germans use German names mostly because you might think someone is non-German and not really know. For example, most people that I know assume that all Germans have blond hair and blue eyes. Most of my German family have brown hair and a few have red, and the eye color is about half brown and half blue. So someone probably would look at my family and not know that they're German. I don't have any preconceptions about a Hildegard or a Sven having to be blond with blue eyes, so I don't find it odd if I meet a redhead with either of those names. I guess because of that, my preconceptions about other cultures and their names has kind of lessened too. In fact, I met a non-Irish Niamh recently and my only reaction was that I love the name, not that it didn't fit. I hope this all makes sense.
Edited for a typo.
Anyway, I don't really find it weird if non-Germans use German names mostly because you might think someone is non-German and not really know. For example, most people that I know assume that all Germans have blond hair and blue eyes. Most of my German family have brown hair and a few have red, and the eye color is about half brown and half blue. So someone probably would look at my family and not know that they're German. I don't have any preconceptions about a Hildegard or a Sven having to be blond with blue eyes, so I don't find it odd if I meet a redhead with either of those names. I guess because of that, my preconceptions about other cultures and their names has kind of lessened too. In fact, I met a non-Irish Niamh recently and my only reaction was that I love the name, not that it didn't fit. I hope this all makes sense.
Edited for a typo.
This message was edited 7/15/2011, 6:33 PM
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It does make sense. Thanks for your post! =)
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I personally think that names should match the cultures. It looks bizarre naming your daughter, say, Aisha if you're not Muslim or your son Kazimierz if you're not Polish.
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But how does that apply to people who live in a country that doesn't have a specific foreign culture (thank you for that phrase Ilex) like the US? Do you think that someone like me who is half Slovak and half Dutch/German/French should only use names from those cultures, as opposted to names like Elizabeth or Ann (aka very English names)? I'm not saying that I disagree with you-it's an interesting point and the world of names encountered would certainly be more interesting if that was the case. I'm just wondering how far you're applying that.
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My name's Erik and I'm not Scandinavian - I'm 3/4 Italian and 1/4 German.
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I get what you're saying. So it has a lot to do with where you're from as well as your ethnic background. And some names look weirder on people who aren't a certain nationality than others.
I love your name, btw. I've been meaning to tell you that for a while. :-)
I love your name, btw. I've been meaning to tell you that for a while. :-)
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I wouldn't say we Americans don't have a mother culture. Some of us with ancestors who have been here for centuries consider the American culture to be our mother culture. Just because it doesn't have a specific foreign culture as its base doesn't mean anything to me. We have mainly Germano-Celtic British, Polish, and some French, Czech and Norwegian roots. My relative's Lutheran church has a latke lunch every year, and serve lefse as a side. Bratwurst, sauerkraut, kielbasa are common. We can get paczki for Mardi Gras. We have Oktoberfests all over the state (Wisconsin).
As for names, I think most people worry more about flow than what the nation of origin of the name is. Yes, English names are common because that is our language and a big part of the begining of the country. I would be surprised to find a Keturah Gomez or Anoush Skenendore, but if the parents like the flow of those names, it is their decision. But, maybe that is why we have so many place name and new names now. They don't have foreign roots as a first name. That makes them American names, not English or French, or Chinese, etc. That's also why I was surprised to see Madison in the ratings for top English/ British names. Madison is American, OUR founding father. He wanted to get rid of you guys (last sentence directed to Brits)
Maybe I didn't answer your question exactly, but that's what I think about about the subject.
As for names, I think most people worry more about flow than what the nation of origin of the name is. Yes, English names are common because that is our language and a big part of the begining of the country. I would be surprised to find a Keturah Gomez or Anoush Skenendore, but if the parents like the flow of those names, it is their decision. But, maybe that is why we have so many place name and new names now. They don't have foreign roots as a first name. That makes them American names, not English or French, or Chinese, etc. That's also why I was surprised to see Madison in the ratings for top English/ British names. Madison is American, OUR founding father. He wanted to get rid of you guys (last sentence directed to Brits)
Maybe I didn't answer your question exactly, but that's what I think about about the subject.
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Just to say about Madison, I think it's popular here (Britain) among certain groups of people because it has that trendy/American vibe (and has been used in popular culture like the film Splash). I very much doubt it's anything to do with the historical figure, Madison. He's not very well known here and I had never really heard of him until I joined BtN and looked up the meaning once I noticed the name becoming popular.
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I never expected people in Britain to know the same things as we learn here about the American Revolution. I just used it as an example because as a first name, it's an American name, no matter where the last name came from. Knowing what I learned growing up, it really surprised me. I guess my reaction to that is the same as hearing about a Yuko Vander Heyden (just an example) or some other culturally mismatched combo.
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I get what you are saying. I suppose some cultural names do seem mismatched but American culture is so prevalent around the world, especially in English-speaking areas, so some people are more likely to choose American names for that reason because they have an image of being cool or something, whereas they wouldn't choose a Japanese name or some other more obscure culture they have no connection with.
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I understand that. That's why I said I wasn't speaking for everyone. I myself have always felt the lack of connection from a "mother culture" in my life from a very young age. That's just me. I do have to say, the description of festivities in your area sounds really interesting.
But, maybe that is why we have so many place name and new names now. They don't have foreign roots as a first name. That makes them American names, not English or French, or Chinese, etc.
I won't pretend to be a fan of the names that you mention, but this is a really good point that I hadn't thought of before.
My point seems to have disintegrated a bit, through no one's fault but my own. Originally my question was something more along the lines of "How far can a white American person go when it comes to adopting names from a foreign/minority culture without offending anyone?" The side of white American-Europeans taking on American names through time or non-white American people taking American/English names is only one side of the coin. Geez, I don't even know if that made sense. I don't think I've confused myself this badly in a long time!
But, maybe that is why we have so many place name and new names now. They don't have foreign roots as a first name. That makes them American names, not English or French, or Chinese, etc.
I won't pretend to be a fan of the names that you mention, but this is a really good point that I hadn't thought of before.
My point seems to have disintegrated a bit, through no one's fault but my own. Originally my question was something more along the lines of "How far can a white American person go when it comes to adopting names from a foreign/minority culture without offending anyone?" The side of white American-Europeans taking on American names through time or non-white American people taking American/English names is only one side of the coin. Geez, I don't even know if that made sense. I don't think I've confused myself this badly in a long time!
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I didn't think about the place names and new names being from the Ameican culture until I wrote this. I knew of Native Americans named Cheyenne and Dakota from school (they weren't in my grade, though). Those have become trendy American names. I can think of a few white kids in the school I work at with those names, but they also fall in the place name trends. I think that if someone used a name that isn't expected because of your race or last name, you would expect the person to have some sort of a connection to it. A late best friend, you are fascinated by the culture, any important connection, not just I like it.
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I agree. Some kind of connection definitely makes the choice more legitimate.
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It's a bit like fusion cooking, no? A little Japanese mixed with Tex Mex mixed with Italian. I think it is a particularly American trait to borrow from other cultures--an over-riding tendency to think that because we can, maybe we should.....
Taking my family as an example, I don't think it's that unusual...my father moved here from Quebec and married my mother who was born here but to Quebecois parents. So even though she technically was born in the US she was brought up in what was essentially a Franco-American ghetto, and what I mean by that was that everyone she knew was also Franco-American and only spoke French, went to French school, listened to French radio, ate meat pies and beans and little else--the whole nine yards. My parents and their sibs were all given very French names. (Yolande, Ludovine, Clairisse, Lucille, Madeline, Paul, George etc.) Big families, lots of kids. They grew up and most, but not all, of them married other Franco-Americans but this generation was more assimilated. They learned English gradually, most of them in their twenties, and went on to give their kids (me and my cousins) names they thought of as American because they felt it would make our lives easier. This trend was more pronounced the longer it went on. My older cousins have names that can still be easily pronounced in French, such as Norman, Robert, Louise---but the younger bunch of us were purposely given "American" names, such as Carolyn, Kimberly, Gail, Brian, etc. It's sad, in a way. In another way, it's just what happens. In my generation, not a single one of my 16 first cousins married another Franco-American, so all of our kids are from blended backgrounds with all kinds of names. Certainly nothing that sounds really French. Even the honoring names were Anglicized so that Rose de Lima (my grandmother's full fn) got used as Rose in a lot of middle names, Clairisse morphed into Claire, etc. When I had a chance to name my daughters, I wasn't that concerned with my Franco-American heritage. I just chose names I liked, in one instance a Welsh one. (My aunts had a hey day with that!)
So I think name fusion is here to stay and perfectly natural. Though I do think it gets tricky when we want to revert to or align with foreign pronunciations. And I think some Native Americans would feel ripped off if their names were used in this way. It could be seen as a kind of colonization or appropriation.
Taking my family as an example, I don't think it's that unusual...my father moved here from Quebec and married my mother who was born here but to Quebecois parents. So even though she technically was born in the US she was brought up in what was essentially a Franco-American ghetto, and what I mean by that was that everyone she knew was also Franco-American and only spoke French, went to French school, listened to French radio, ate meat pies and beans and little else--the whole nine yards. My parents and their sibs were all given very French names. (Yolande, Ludovine, Clairisse, Lucille, Madeline, Paul, George etc.) Big families, lots of kids. They grew up and most, but not all, of them married other Franco-Americans but this generation was more assimilated. They learned English gradually, most of them in their twenties, and went on to give their kids (me and my cousins) names they thought of as American because they felt it would make our lives easier. This trend was more pronounced the longer it went on. My older cousins have names that can still be easily pronounced in French, such as Norman, Robert, Louise---but the younger bunch of us were purposely given "American" names, such as Carolyn, Kimberly, Gail, Brian, etc. It's sad, in a way. In another way, it's just what happens. In my generation, not a single one of my 16 first cousins married another Franco-American, so all of our kids are from blended backgrounds with all kinds of names. Certainly nothing that sounds really French. Even the honoring names were Anglicized so that Rose de Lima (my grandmother's full fn) got used as Rose in a lot of middle names, Clairisse morphed into Claire, etc. When I had a chance to name my daughters, I wasn't that concerned with my Franco-American heritage. I just chose names I liked, in one instance a Welsh one. (My aunts had a hey day with that!)
So I think name fusion is here to stay and perfectly natural. Though I do think it gets tricky when we want to revert to or align with foreign pronunciations. And I think some Native Americans would feel ripped off if their names were used in this way. It could be seen as a kind of colonization or appropriation.
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I think it is a particularly American trait to borrow from other cultures--an over-riding tendency to think that because we can, maybe we should.....
I agree.
First of all, there are some really lovely names in your family. I understand name fusion. It happened in my family too. Mauritius and Regula and Magdalena were taken over by Christine and Nicole and Joshua. Happens to almost everyone. Regardless of anyone's ancestry, when enough generations live in a certain country it becomes their home and they go along with the trends in that country. I agree that some Native Americans would feel ripped off if their names were used en masse on white American children. I could understand why.
I agree.
First of all, there are some really lovely names in your family. I understand name fusion. It happened in my family too. Mauritius and Regula and Magdalena were taken over by Christine and Nicole and Joshua. Happens to almost everyone. Regardless of anyone's ancestry, when enough generations live in a certain country it becomes their home and they go along with the trends in that country. I agree that some Native Americans would feel ripped off if their names were used en masse on white American children. I could understand why.
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Even though you had some trepidation about starting this thread, it has been a great thread! I had to get some sleep before I could continue with it, but I see it went on into the wee hours.
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It has been a great thread! I'm thrilled with all of the well thought out answers I've gotten.
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Ultimately, I think it comes down to pronunciation. To me, a name like Aidan is no longer Irish; it is an English version of an Irish name. I live in a town where most people speak French and English or at least, they know bits and pieces of the other language, and to me, it isn’t strange to meet an English Pierre or a French Peter. A name like Genevieve, for example, may have a French origin, but it has been made pronounceable in English; thus, to me, it is completely different from Geneviève.
My family is from Lithuania and Latvia, and many people in my family changed their names to “Canadian” names. For example, Bronius became Bruce. He didn’t change his name because the Canadians were racist pigs and he was forced to conform to another culture; he changed his name to make it pronounceable for English- and French-speakers alike. My first name, Samantha, is a very English name, and to the French-speakers, I am "Sah-mahn-tah" instead of "Sah-mahn-tha". It’s almost like I have two names. It is also a regional issue too; to some Canadians, I am "Sah-mahnff-uh" or "Sah-mahn-dah". I consider these different pronunciations to be different names, and if I lived in that region/culture, I would change my name to the dominant pronunciation.
So, people borrow from other cultures all the time, but generally, (in North America) they Anglicize or Gallicize the names; they make them pronounceable in the dominant language. When the name isn’t Anglicized or Gallicized, I find it strange. Whether it’s Lithuanian, French, Dutch, Indian etc., I still find it to be an odd name if I can’t pronounce it in my native languages. This is also the reason I call my boyfriend Kay instead of his real name, which is very, very Indian and an absolute nightmare for my English/French tongue to say.
My family is from Lithuania and Latvia, and many people in my family changed their names to “Canadian” names. For example, Bronius became Bruce. He didn’t change his name because the Canadians were racist pigs and he was forced to conform to another culture; he changed his name to make it pronounceable for English- and French-speakers alike. My first name, Samantha, is a very English name, and to the French-speakers, I am "Sah-mahn-tah" instead of "Sah-mahn-tha". It’s almost like I have two names. It is also a regional issue too; to some Canadians, I am "Sah-mahnff-uh" or "Sah-mahn-dah". I consider these different pronunciations to be different names, and if I lived in that region/culture, I would change my name to the dominant pronunciation.
So, people borrow from other cultures all the time, but generally, (in North America) they Anglicize or Gallicize the names; they make them pronounceable in the dominant language. When the name isn’t Anglicized or Gallicized, I find it strange. Whether it’s Lithuanian, French, Dutch, Indian etc., I still find it to be an odd name if I can’t pronounce it in my native languages. This is also the reason I call my boyfriend Kay instead of his real name, which is very, very Indian and an absolute nightmare for my English/French tongue to say.
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Yeah. I hope I didn't imply that anyone was a racist pig. That's definitely not the point I was trying to make.
I guess I just have a different opinion. I find names that aren't Anglicized fascinating in person and I wish I came across them more often. To each their own.
I guess I just have a different opinion. I find names that aren't Anglicized fascinating in person and I wish I came across them more often. To each their own.
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I think it's because America has included people of a lot of different cultures and many Americans have more than one national/ethnic identity. And then, there is the fact that there are very few names you could identify as American in the same way you could Irish or Swahili. I've heard a lot of Americans want to use for example Irish names to honour their Irish heritage and yeah, I think it is because although there is a strong sense of what is "American" there is not a distinctive language or a long indigenous history. Also, American has become the norm and the price is that loss of coherent identity.
Ideally, I would like all names to be usable by everyone and all cultures to be seen as human rather than belonging to certain nations but in practise, it's more difficult. I think if you are part of a dominant culture, using names from other cultures seems like appropriation. I don't know why but I think a white American using an African name would be problematic where the reverse wouldn't be. Maybe someone can explain that. It also depends on whether you care about the meaning and context of your name or whether it just sounded cool. It's one thing to appreciate different cultures and another to use a name because it's exotic and not bother with the implications.
This is pretty disjointed and rambling so I apologise! Hopefully some of it makes sense. I think it's an interesting question and one I've thought about recently too.
Ideally, I would like all names to be usable by everyone and all cultures to be seen as human rather than belonging to certain nations but in practise, it's more difficult. I think if you are part of a dominant culture, using names from other cultures seems like appropriation. I don't know why but I think a white American using an African name would be problematic where the reverse wouldn't be. Maybe someone can explain that. It also depends on whether you care about the meaning and context of your name or whether it just sounded cool. It's one thing to appreciate different cultures and another to use a name because it's exotic and not bother with the implications.
This is pretty disjointed and rambling so I apologise! Hopefully some of it makes sense. I think it's an interesting question and one I've thought about recently too.
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I think if you are part of a dominant culture, using names from other cultures seems like appropriation.
I've also wondered about this, which is why I'm asking this question in the first place. You actually described it much better than I did. Why is it that it's ok for someone who isn't white-European/American to use a white-European/American name and not the reverse? The one thing that I do not want to see is American trends becoming the generic or one-size-fits-all of naming trends, where all of these other amazing names from different cultures are neglected because they aren't generic or one size fits all. I am mildly and possibly un-justifiably worried that globalization really means Americanization, mostly because of the name thing and McDonalds (etc) invading the world like a parasite.
Ha! All of my posts seem disjointed and rambling to me. If your post is rambling, which I don't think it is, you're in good company.
I've also wondered about this, which is why I'm asking this question in the first place. You actually described it much better than I did. Why is it that it's ok for someone who isn't white-European/American to use a white-European/American name and not the reverse? The one thing that I do not want to see is American trends becoming the generic or one-size-fits-all of naming trends, where all of these other amazing names from different cultures are neglected because they aren't generic or one size fits all. I am mildly and possibly un-justifiably worried that globalization really means Americanization, mostly because of the name thing and McDonalds (etc) invading the world like a parasite.
Ha! All of my posts seem disjointed and rambling to me. If your post is rambling, which I don't think it is, you're in good company.
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I don't think American/English names will be really generic. Naming your child Madison in China is still a statement. America is certainly dominant but sometimes that helps people define and strengthen their idea of cultural identity in contrast. Anyway, in America itself there's an interest in avoiding the generic and making a name unique. I hope globalisation will make more people aware of different cultures and their value and our common humanity etc...at it's best I think it's a very worthwhile thing.
What worries me is the complacency a lot of English speakers pick up, where we don't bother learning other languages or promoting it because everyone will speak English. I think learning another language gives you a different frame for thinking and is really important and beneficial, and I wish we emphasised it more in education. I think it can put us at a great disadvantage. It might be better in America where Spanish is also a major language, for me in England there was a fairly half-hearted compromise between French and German. It would be nice if other British languages were mentioned in the English curriculum too. Bit of a digression but names and languages are pretty tied up together.
What worries me is the complacency a lot of English speakers pick up, where we don't bother learning other languages or promoting it because everyone will speak English. I think learning another language gives you a different frame for thinking and is really important and beneficial, and I wish we emphasised it more in education. I think it can put us at a great disadvantage. It might be better in America where Spanish is also a major language, for me in England there was a fairly half-hearted compromise between French and German. It would be nice if other British languages were mentioned in the English curriculum too. Bit of a digression but names and languages are pretty tied up together.
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I don't think that they'll become completely generic either and I'm certainly no trend watcher. I guess my it's just my namenerd sensibilities. Every time someone is named Jennifer because it's more normal than Parvin (or whatever) it makes me a little sad at the missed chance for diversity. Not to say that I don't respect the reason why they do that. Blah. I wish I could give you a better answer, but in the last two hours I've gone from tired to barely conscious. I agree with the rest of your post.
This message was edited 7/15/2011, 6:04 PM
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Now I see your other question clearly- I think it's because places like Germany and France etc. retain their culture and some European countries have naming laws to protect it! America is the barbie doll of the world- you can do (be) what you want to do / (be) haha.
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Naming laws! Oh, that is a good point. Of course it would be nearly impossible to have naming laws in the U.S. and I'm not saying that I'd want any, but I suppose if you're going to live in a country where there are so many different cultures living together and (hopefully) mixing, at least a bit, it would be nice to not be shackled to English and English appropriate names. Bit of a dream there, I think.
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I'm American, and I actually disagree with your theory to a certain extent. If I saw someone without a German or Slovakian heritage named Ladislava I'd be like... weird, what the heck? Same would go if I saw someone with a super Hebrew name who wasn't Jewish or someone with a super Italian name who had no Italian heritage, etc. I knew a girl in college named Leilani who wasn't at all Hawaiian, and I thought it was kind of odd. I don't know if it has to do with how heritage and staying consistent with that is meaningful to me or what, but I would think that people will only use names that are part of their heritage or are acceptable as generic in American culture. Like Aidan or Connor. If you weren't Irish, I wouldn't think it was weird because they're so common. Most popular names are English somehow, and that makes sense to me since we speak English and used to be English. Even though lots of other stuff has gotten thrown in there for the majority of families. Anyway, hope that makes sense.
This message was edited 7/15/2011, 2:58 PM
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I do know what you mean, very much. Ladislava was a bit of a strong choice. Maybe I should have gone with something more German, since there aren't a whole lot of Slovakian people in the US in comparison with German people. Anyways, I agree with you to a certain extent, and it brings up another question that may be ever more sensitive. If said American person was born or emigrated (with the intention to stay for life) to a non-English speaking country, say Slovakia, would it be considered weird for that person to be given or change their name to a Slovakian name? I ask this because a lot of people who are new to America (either them or their parents) are given or take generic American names, like Jennifer. I understand that they do it to fit in. It's normal and expected. But sometimes I...I don't want to say worry, but I do feel odd about how many people easily take American names (both here and in other countries) and yet how much of a barrier there is between an American person and a non white-European name. I almost feel like it allows white America to propagate and become the new global "person" instead of a cross cultural influence where people really can go both ways. How global are we if in a country that constantly boasts about being a country of immigrants the only real normal is white-European immigrant? But I could be really off here. I only have my own experience (and American media) to speak of.
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The reason the majority of people have white-European names is because the majority of people are of white-European heritage. In general, recent immigrants have names from wherever they're from. I know some will change their names, but I think that's more of a personal choice for them. No one will think it's weird if you were born in China and then came here and are still called something Chinese. Or even if you were born here but both of your parents were from China. But there are names (ones that aren't collectively commonly used) that are going to indicate your cultural background. If you were American and moved to some non-English speaking place, I wouldn't expect your name to be changed to reflect the new place, either. But some people might just think it would be easier for them and maybe they wouldn't care. I guess maybe I'm not entirely clear what you're meaning?
This message was edited 7/15/2011, 3:19 PM
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That's probably because I'm not being entirely clear. I think I said something closer to what I meant in reply to yasmine's post. Ugh, I'm getting so mixed up. It's been a long day.
This message was edited 7/15/2011, 3:25 PM
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No worries, I definitely know that feeling!
I read your response to yasmine and it is more clear. I'd say it could be because white-European countries have so much world power, that is why some other countries are more apt to take "our" names for some of their own trends. And it's not just American naming trends that are adopted by other countries. We get the back of the British naming trends somewhat, I think. At least currently, more upper-class people BAs might look straight out of England. At least in my experience.
I read your response to yasmine and it is more clear. I'd say it could be because white-European countries have so much world power, that is why some other countries are more apt to take "our" names for some of their own trends. And it's not just American naming trends that are adopted by other countries. We get the back of the British naming trends somewhat, I think. At least currently, more upper-class people BAs might look straight out of England. At least in my experience.
This message was edited 7/15/2011, 3:39 PM
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Yes, that could be it. I think ADT is right about multi-culturalism being an illusion. I really do believe, although I'd love to be set right, that on many levels globalization means that things are becoming more generic on a large scale instead of more diverse on a large scale. As a namenerd it makes me sad and slightly discouraged. I remember one interview that Oprah had with Maya Angelou. She (Maya Angelou) said that she knew that people in her neighborhood were starting to care more about where they lived because they were putting flower boxes on their window. That's sort of how I feel now, only without the flower boxes. I find it hard to believe that the world really is becoming global if people don't make the effort to go both ways. And I'm rambling.
Anyways, I do think we get some of the British naming trends, but I would say that it's on a very small scale. I've read before that in naming trends we're about 10 years behind England. So maybe in 10 years Hector or Elsie / Maisie type names will become more common here.
Anyways, I do think we get some of the British naming trends, but I would say that it's on a very small scale. I've read before that in naming trends we're about 10 years behind England. So maybe in 10 years Hector or Elsie / Maisie type names will become more common here.
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Yeah, kinda. But I see lots of people say stuff like "My family is Italian/Irish/Greek/etc. so we want an Italian/Irish/Greek/etc. name for our baby." Of course these names aren't usually too authentic or uncommon in the respective origins because they'd also need to work well-fairly well in an English speaking place. And then of course you also get the sorts who are like "Oh, my grandma is Irish so we want to name our daughter something Irish. We're calling her Makynzie." *facepalm*
Anyway, point being I think people still try to embrace where they're from, even if it's where they're from and not where their ancestors are from. And on many more ways than just the names they choose for their children.
Anyway, point being I think people still try to embrace where they're from, even if it's where they're from and not where their ancestors are from. And on many more ways than just the names they choose for their children.
This message was edited 7/15/2011, 4:04 PM
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I agree that people try to find ways to honor where they're from. I know I do. Isn't the Makynzie thing too true? I see your facepalm and raise you an exasperated sigh.
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This might not be in direct answer to your question, but I dislike seeing a surname from one minority culture with a first name from a different minority culture (unless the bearer is of dual heritage) - it just seems weird to me.
for example, Gwen Stefano!
for example, Gwen Stefano!
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That can seem weird in some cases. To be honest, even in my own family that seems weird to me. We have a very Swiss German last name-I don't think you could find one more so. And yet everyone in my family is Keith, Adam, Hilary, Jennifer. Stylistically the contrast is almost enough to hurt my eyes.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one! btw it's amazing how 100 years ago Jennifer was all but forgotten outside Cornwall and now it's a megastar!
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I know! The popularity of Jennifer blows my mind. It's very interesting and yet in a way kind of sad. It's a very pretty name. I think it would be wonderful to use if it weren't so popular. I feel the same way about Jessica. So classy, so common.
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I asked my mom her opinion on this last night! haha.
How ironic- I've been thinking of this so much lately too! But my opinion is biased- because my name is Collette (Colette) and I'm not French- I don't even have French relatives. My mom just liked the name. Which is good, because I know she and my family wouldn't care if I gave my child a name that had obvious origins. And America is a bit of a buffet itself. Go out in public- you see all types of people right? You should, considering so many cultures immigrated here and still do. So even if you're not from hawaii, Leilani can walk around with confidence even though she's not that culture since so many people have names from everywhere here in America do to their relatives or friends, the media, etc. So I believe it's perfectly fine and you can do whatever you want with it.
How ironic- I've been thinking of this so much lately too! But my opinion is biased- because my name is Collette (Colette) and I'm not French- I don't even have French relatives. My mom just liked the name. Which is good, because I know she and my family wouldn't care if I gave my child a name that had obvious origins. And America is a bit of a buffet itself. Go out in public- you see all types of people right? You should, considering so many cultures immigrated here and still do. So even if you're not from hawaii, Leilani can walk around with confidence even though she's not that culture since so many people have names from everywhere here in America do to their relatives or friends, the media, etc. So I believe it's perfectly fine and you can do whatever you want with it.
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That's a really positive attitude to have, I admire it. =) It must be true in some places.
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Thanks haha. It's been true for where I've lived in the U.S.; if people ask my name and I tell them it and they ask further about it and mention how I'm not French though they don't care or detest it. But I do agree that some crossing over in separatist social scenes isn't happening and probably won't ever.
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I've extensively travelled to both Spain and Poland and it's not uncommon to see all kinds of names. I feel that people forget that Globalization is also cultural. So yeah, it doesn't matter what culture you're from. I had a student whose name was Olekdandr and there was nothing Ukrainian about him - in fact, he was surprise the name is Ukrainian.
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So it is pretty common? Because I feel like with the places that I've lived here in the US people of different cultures just don't mix. Where I'm at now there is a definite Italian section and a definite Dutch section, and not a whole lot of overlap. I run across Italian men named Giancarlo, but I would never in a million years run across a Dutch man named Giancarlo. Even when I lived in California. White American, Hispanic and Indian people were all seperate. In school (I lived there for middle school) generally people of one culture only spent time with people of the same culture, and that went to places where we lived, names, grocery stores even in some cases. My only real experience of culture is of these little cultural islands with yellow tape around them, if you know what I mean.
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Yes, that happens and you described the whole illusion of multi-culturalism. It's like Canada prides itself in multi-culturalism but really it's not. I taught seminars about this and it felt like I was breaking people's ingrained beliefs.
I totally agree with you when it comes to typically Italian names like Giancarlo, etc. especially when the person lives in a distinctly separated community and, of course, it depends on the person that's giving the name (how comfortale he/she is).
I totally agree with you when it comes to typically Italian names like Giancarlo, etc. especially when the person lives in a distinctly separated community and, of course, it depends on the person that's giving the name (how comfortale he/she is).
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America must have that illusion also. It bothers me to hear that America is a "come one, come all" country where everyone mixes because in my experience that's simply not true. There's got to be some reason why I've had a total of two acquaintances (just acquaintances) in my whole life who were not white American. I don't think it's because of a lack of friendliness on my part and it's not because of a lack of people of other cultures. It just seems like trying to bridge that space between cultures has always resulted in an oil and vinegar situation. I remember in 8th grade I tried to be friends with a really nice Hispanic girl (I don't know specifically where she was from) and when it was just us hanging out we got along wonderfully. But when her other friends who were also Hispanic were around I was completely lost because they spoke Spanish to each other. I remember one girl in particular who wouldn't even look at me. It wasn't just them though. I don't speak Spanish, so I had no way to relate to them.
I also remember one of my first jobs. Most of the people who worked there were of Slavic descent, Hungarian or Russian, etc. When I told them that I was half Slovakian I was almost instantly in the fold. Even though I don't speak any Slavic language. I was hearing stories about their families in Hungary, who was getting married to who when...it was incredible, using the "impossible to believe" definition. I've never experienced anything like it.
I'm not sure what my comfort level would be. When I was choosing my name there would have been a LOT of very Hebrew/Jewish names on my list if I wasn't so trepidatious about using a name from a culture I'm clearly not a member of.
I also remember one of my first jobs. Most of the people who worked there were of Slavic descent, Hungarian or Russian, etc. When I told them that I was half Slovakian I was almost instantly in the fold. Even though I don't speak any Slavic language. I was hearing stories about their families in Hungary, who was getting married to who when...it was incredible, using the "impossible to believe" definition. I've never experienced anything like it.
I'm not sure what my comfort level would be. When I was choosing my name there would have been a LOT of very Hebrew/Jewish names on my list if I wasn't so trepidatious about using a name from a culture I'm clearly not a member of.
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That is very, very Fargo.
Moving here was a huge culture shock to me in a lot of ways, the biggest one being how separate the area is. In DC you had your different groups and while it was often based on culture there was always cross-over. Here? Not so much. I remember having to run inference whenever we had a non-American family visit the store I worked at. So many of my co-workers were upset that they couldn't speak English or had an accent - and incredibly distrustful of them. I also see this when I shop at ethnic grocery stores. My husband & I eat a lot of international foods and grains - we find a better (and often cheaper) selection at various international grocery stories. Every time we walk in, though, I can feel the tension. It's obvious they've had quite a few Americans walks in and just make fun of the food/etc. I have to make an effort to talk to them and show them that I know about their foods & cultures before they welcome me. I've also made it a habit of asking people where they're from - especially people from Africa. Too often people don't even know that their are actual countries in Africa and the idea that someone knows where Nigeria / Sudan / Chad / Kenya / Ghana is and knows about the food, language(s) and culture means so much to them. It's ridiculous how close-minded people can be.
Moving here was a huge culture shock to me in a lot of ways, the biggest one being how separate the area is. In DC you had your different groups and while it was often based on culture there was always cross-over. Here? Not so much. I remember having to run inference whenever we had a non-American family visit the store I worked at. So many of my co-workers were upset that they couldn't speak English or had an accent - and incredibly distrustful of them. I also see this when I shop at ethnic grocery stores. My husband & I eat a lot of international foods and grains - we find a better (and often cheaper) selection at various international grocery stories. Every time we walk in, though, I can feel the tension. It's obvious they've had quite a few Americans walks in and just make fun of the food/etc. I have to make an effort to talk to them and show them that I know about their foods & cultures before they welcome me. I've also made it a habit of asking people where they're from - especially people from Africa. Too often people don't even know that their are actual countries in Africa and the idea that someone knows where Nigeria / Sudan / Chad / Kenya / Ghana is and knows about the food, language(s) and culture means so much to them. It's ridiculous how close-minded people can be.
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You guys don't sound very happy in Fargo. Why don't you move to a place that is a bigger, a bit more liberal-minded? That sounds more your speed.
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My husband has an excellent job with great benefits. Moving in this economy would be chancy at best. Plus while there is plenty about Fargo I don't like there is also quite a bit I do. Enough to make it work out for the next few years.
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Thanks for sharing, I definitely can relate (I'm middle-class white). I don't think Canadians are as bad as you've described (although it depends on the person)... I mean with look-giving and such tightly knitted groups. But, somehow people tend to socialize with those with similar experiences. My parents visited with friends in the U.S recently and they came back shocked as to how racist the friends were being - ie: when showing them around the city they would make comments like "this is where the black people live, so we don't come here often" and just stereotyping.
I love the names Rachel and Leah... but I'm not Jewish... hmm...
I love the names Rachel and Leah... but I'm not Jewish... hmm...
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People do tend to gravitate towards others that they have something definite in common with. I personally find it a little bit boring and lonely. Sort of like talking to a mirror sometimes. Racism itself is a big problem where I am. It constantly amazes me how plainly stated it is without any kind of shame.
I don't know if the Rachel and Leah thing was a point you were trying to make or not, but I do sort of get it if you were. I do feel like there's a difference between using a name that's been adopted by American culture and one that's practically unknown to it, though I suppose that opinion is hardly justifiable if we're going strictly by culture. The Jewish/Hebrew names that I especially love are more along the lines of Keturah, Hadassah, Rivka, Avigail, Elisheva, etc. Not exactly common. I don't even have the excuse of being Christian and saying that I got it from the Bible or somesuch.
I don't know if the Rachel and Leah thing was a point you were trying to make or not, but I do sort of get it if you were. I do feel like there's a difference between using a name that's been adopted by American culture and one that's practically unknown to it, though I suppose that opinion is hardly justifiable if we're going strictly by culture. The Jewish/Hebrew names that I especially love are more along the lines of Keturah, Hadassah, Rivka, Avigail, Elisheva, etc. Not exactly common. I don't even have the excuse of being Christian and saying that I got it from the Bible or somesuch.
This message was edited 7/15/2011, 7:02 PM
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Yes, I was trying to make a point with Rachel & Leah. I had a roommate Rachel, her siblings were Sarah, Peter, and John. Being a name nerd I suspected that they referred to Biblical names and I was completely right. Rachel has a Mennonite background.
From the list that you gave I feel that Avigal would be seen as a creative spelling of Abigail my most. My name is Agata and I've been asked before if my parents misspelled my name (I prounounce Agata like Agatha without the H - so Agate-uh).
From the list that you gave I feel that Avigal would be seen as a creative spelling of Abigail my most. My name is Agata and I've been asked before if my parents misspelled my name (I prounounce Agata like Agatha without the H - so Agate-uh).
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Most people probably would assume that, except anyone who was actually Jewish and familiar with Jewish names. But then I'm assuming. In the end I suppose it really depends on the individual person's opinion, whether they'd be offended or honored. Who can count on either one?
Agata is a gorgeous name, by the way.
Agata is a gorgeous name, by the way.
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typo: Avigail*
d
d
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OLEKSANDR *
When I say that I had a student I mean a university student.
When I say that I had a student I mean a university student.
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