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HelpRe: Love on a boy (m)
in reply to a message by Y
I'd want my son to be gentle and sweet, particularly with children and animals, and all occasions in which nothing but gentleness and sweetness are required, but I'd also want him to be strong-willed, proud, and self-assertive when the occasion calls for it. That's why I wouldn't pick a name that had a gentle and sweet vibe, feel, connotation, whatever you want to call it, only.
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Your name doesn't determine your personality, and "sweet and gentle" doesn't mean "ONLY EVER sweet and gentle". You'll never be able to find a name that encapsulates every possible personality trait you can think of, so why put all of that pressure on your baby's name? My name is soft and cutesy but that doesn't mean I'm nothing but soft, and it definitely doesn't mean that my parents didn't care about me having good personality traits. They just didn't think my personality would be based on my name.. and it wasn't, because that's not how personalities work.
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Out of curiosity, what are some male names that in your opinion have only sweet&gentle vibe? It's of course a matter of personal taste, I'm asking because I feel that many classic English male names, such as Matthew, William, Samuel, Nathan and James are very sweet and gentle (where as Andrew and Peter for example aren't).
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It's hard for me to come up with them from off the top of my head. It's more of a "I know it when I hear it" thing. But:
Adrian ---- which I actually like but wouldn't use because it's only sweet and gentle.
Theodore --- In spite of Roosevelt
Arlo
Asa
Giles
Rowan ---- this is the King of them
Spencer
Tucker
Emory
Julian
Lucian
Caspar
But of course it's subjective.
Adrian ---- which I actually like but wouldn't use because it's only sweet and gentle.
Theodore --- In spite of Roosevelt
Arlo
Asa
Giles
Rowan ---- this is the King of them
Spencer
Tucker
Emory
Julian
Lucian
Caspar
But of course it's subjective.
This message was edited 8/3/2020, 10:32 AM
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I agree with you about using names that seem "sweet and gentle" (or too "feminine") but not about which names are that!
It sure is subjective.
Some of these are favorite man names of mine and it's not at all because of them seeming sweet or gentle.
So I'm going to "defend" them, heh.
Adrian to me seems expansive and orderly (I'm not a poet ok... I mean, I think of stuff like ... oceangoing ships and travel, and officialness or the helpful/uplifting aspect of formal organization and ritual). Definitely masculine and I hate it spelled Adrian for women... it's so mannish.
Rowan is similar but more earthy, more of a mage with a staff and robes. I also think Rowan for a woman is mannish.
Julian only seems feminine because it's practically unisex and therefore de-masculinized from certain perspectives but I think it easily switches between genders and takes on masculinity very strongly when used for a masculine person. Great potential as a jock name.
I don't agree with you about Spencer, Tucker, Giles, or Caspar either. Not remotely. Caspar is positively butch. Almost martial.
Tucker's a little trivial/childish, though. And Lucian, kinda slick/vain (though I still like it for a guy, I don't feel like it has the masculine potential that Julian has).
I do agree though, about Theodore, Arlo, Emory, and Asa.
Sometimes it seems to me that younger women often prefer guy names that smack "sweet and gentle" because they evoke male characters who are less ... scary to them.
It sure is subjective.
Some of these are favorite man names of mine and it's not at all because of them seeming sweet or gentle.
So I'm going to "defend" them, heh.
Adrian to me seems expansive and orderly (I'm not a poet ok... I mean, I think of stuff like ... oceangoing ships and travel, and officialness or the helpful/uplifting aspect of formal organization and ritual). Definitely masculine and I hate it spelled Adrian for women... it's so mannish.
Rowan is similar but more earthy, more of a mage with a staff and robes. I also think Rowan for a woman is mannish.
Julian only seems feminine because it's practically unisex and therefore de-masculinized from certain perspectives but I think it easily switches between genders and takes on masculinity very strongly when used for a masculine person. Great potential as a jock name.
I don't agree with you about Spencer, Tucker, Giles, or Caspar either. Not remotely. Caspar is positively butch. Almost martial.
Tucker's a little trivial/childish, though. And Lucian, kinda slick/vain (though I still like it for a guy, I don't feel like it has the masculine potential that Julian has).
I do agree though, about Theodore, Arlo, Emory, and Asa.
Sometimes it seems to me that younger women often prefer guy names that smack "sweet and gentle" because they evoke male characters who are less ... scary to them.
This message was edited 8/3/2020, 11:29 AM
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Theodore ...
It isn't a rough and tumble name, exactly, and I definitely can't ever picture it as even remotely unisex. But it does have a stuffy, pompous quality about it that's off-putting. I really like the nn Ted, which is so warm and friendly and down to earth; if I really wanted Ted as a nn I'd have Edward as the full fn.
It isn't a rough and tumble name, exactly, and I definitely can't ever picture it as even remotely unisex. But it does have a stuffy, pompous quality about it that's off-putting. I really like the nn Ted, which is so warm and friendly and down to earth; if I really wanted Ted as a nn I'd have Edward as the full fn.
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agree ...
And a name does not have to be feminine to be gentle. Jonathan and Noah are gentle-sounding names to me, and they are all-boy.
Sometimes I think the "gender neutral" or "non-binary" types are actually more hung up on narrow stereotypes than the general populace.
And a name does not have to be feminine to be gentle. Jonathan and Noah are gentle-sounding names to me, and they are all-boy.
Sometimes I think the "gender neutral" or "non-binary" types are actually more hung up on narrow stereotypes than the general populace.
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"Sometimes I think the "gender neutral" or "non-binary" types are actually more hung up on narrow stereotypes than the general populace."
That comes from outside pressure. If you're not a binary cis person, some people won't believe you about the existence of your own gender unless you fit a very narrow stereotype that they've come up with. So many nonbinary people are afraid that if they experiment at all with anything considered "too girly" or "too boyish", people will misgender them.
Even binary trans people have the same problem-- there are trans men who are afraid to look "too girly" because people won't believe that they're boys, and trans women who wouldn't feel comfortable looking like me (a cis woman) because people wouldn't believe they were girls. It's not because they're hung-up on narrow stereotypes, it's because other people push them into the narrow stereotypes and make it difficult to go outside them.
Sometimes this is relevant to names (if you're nonbinary and your name is too "masculine" or "feminine", people will constantly have to be corrected about your pronouns so it might be easier to change your name to something that's already considered "neutral" even if you actually prefer a name that isn't stereotypically neutral), but not usually relevant to naming babies since you don't know the baby's gender. Most people name the baby assuming it will be cis, with the assumption that they'll change their name later if it doesn't fit.
That comes from outside pressure. If you're not a binary cis person, some people won't believe you about the existence of your own gender unless you fit a very narrow stereotype that they've come up with. So many nonbinary people are afraid that if they experiment at all with anything considered "too girly" or "too boyish", people will misgender them.
Even binary trans people have the same problem-- there are trans men who are afraid to look "too girly" because people won't believe that they're boys, and trans women who wouldn't feel comfortable looking like me (a cis woman) because people wouldn't believe they were girls. It's not because they're hung-up on narrow stereotypes, it's because other people push them into the narrow stereotypes and make it difficult to go outside them.
Sometimes this is relevant to names (if you're nonbinary and your name is too "masculine" or "feminine", people will constantly have to be corrected about your pronouns so it might be easier to change your name to something that's already considered "neutral" even if you actually prefer a name that isn't stereotypically neutral), but not usually relevant to naming babies since you don't know the baby's gender. Most people name the baby assuming it will be cis, with the assumption that they'll change their name later if it doesn't fit.
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True. I do like gentleness and sweetness in boys (I even find it slightly attractive), but why not give him a gentle-sounding male name rather than a female name? The only thing he’ll get from having a female name is misgendering.
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Ditto
"True. I do like gentleness and sweetness in boys (I even find it slightly attractive), but why not give him a gentle-sounding male name rather than a female name? The only thing he’ll get from having a female name is misgendering."
There are plenty of gentle sounding boy names. The only point in giving a boy a girl name is to cause misgendering, which he may not appreciate.
"True. I do like gentleness and sweetness in boys (I even find it slightly attractive), but why not give him a gentle-sounding male name rather than a female name? The only thing he’ll get from having a female name is misgendering."
There are plenty of gentle sounding boy names. The only point in giving a boy a girl name is to cause misgendering, which he may not appreciate.
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This isn't a response to what you said here. I just want to further expound on what I said.
I would also want my daughter to be gentle and sweet, but also strong-willed, proud, and self-assertive when the occasion calls for it. And in fact, I don't think that the name I did choose for my daughter, Victoria, is gentle and sweet at all. It seems that when people dislike it, they do so because it's the opposite of gentle and sweet---"icy" and "prickly" is what I hear most.
But even if one does choose a softer and frillier name for a girl, I don't think it's as much of an encumbrance to the woman the girl will grow into being taking seriously than a traditionally feminine name is for the man the boy will grow into. People expect some women to have soft, gentle, and sweet names. They're going to start from the same point whether the name is something very basic and not soft like Joan, or traditionally masculine such as, I don't know, Jason, as they are if the name is Arabella. But since men are expected to have masculine names, I think a traditionally feminine name is going to result in a lot of probably subconscious, and thus more insidious, initial prejudices.
Anyway, there is and always has been a huge disconnect between this board and the real world about giving boys traditionally feminine names. It's fine and dandy to most people here, it seems. That's not the real world. Boys do not want girls' names. It's a burden and a disadvantage. And no, it's not the same burden and disadvantage for a girl to bear a traditionally masculine name, and no, that's not fair, but it's the way it is.
I would also want my daughter to be gentle and sweet, but also strong-willed, proud, and self-assertive when the occasion calls for it. And in fact, I don't think that the name I did choose for my daughter, Victoria, is gentle and sweet at all. It seems that when people dislike it, they do so because it's the opposite of gentle and sweet---"icy" and "prickly" is what I hear most.
But even if one does choose a softer and frillier name for a girl, I don't think it's as much of an encumbrance to the woman the girl will grow into being taking seriously than a traditionally feminine name is for the man the boy will grow into. People expect some women to have soft, gentle, and sweet names. They're going to start from the same point whether the name is something very basic and not soft like Joan, or traditionally masculine such as, I don't know, Jason, as they are if the name is Arabella. But since men are expected to have masculine names, I think a traditionally feminine name is going to result in a lot of probably subconscious, and thus more insidious, initial prejudices.
Anyway, there is and always has been a huge disconnect between this board and the real world about giving boys traditionally feminine names. It's fine and dandy to most people here, it seems. That's not the real world. Boys do not want girls' names. It's a burden and a disadvantage. And no, it's not the same burden and disadvantage for a girl to bear a traditionally masculine name, and no, that's not fair, but it's the way it is.
This message was edited 8/3/2020, 9:18 AM
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"Anyway, there is and always has been a huge disconnect between this board and the real world about giving boys traditionally feminine names. It's fine and dandy to most people here, it seems. That's not the real world. Boys do not want girls' names. It's a burden and a disadvantage. And no, it's not the same burden and disadvantage for a girl to bear a traditionally masculine name, and no, that's not fair, but it's the way it is."
I don't know if I agree with this part, my husband has a name that is unisex but more commonly used on girls. I have known several males who had names that were more common for girls in their generation: Kelly, Kelsey, Ashley, Courtney, Madison, etc. who were all perfectly happy with their names. In fact, I have never met a boy with a girly name who disliked their name. I have found men who are unhappy with their names tend to be because they are A: too common, like Ryan for boys born in the 90's, or B: overtly masculine, like Gary or Wayne.
I have never seen anyone on this board suggest that we should go out and name a little boy "Josephine" but rather that maybe it isn't such a terrible thing to have a boy named "Aubrey" even though its popularity has gone to the girls.
I don't know if I agree with this part, my husband has a name that is unisex but more commonly used on girls. I have known several males who had names that were more common for girls in their generation: Kelly, Kelsey, Ashley, Courtney, Madison, etc. who were all perfectly happy with their names. In fact, I have never met a boy with a girly name who disliked their name. I have found men who are unhappy with their names tend to be because they are A: too common, like Ryan for boys born in the 90's, or B: overtly masculine, like Gary or Wayne.
I have never seen anyone on this board suggest that we should go out and name a little boy "Josephine" but rather that maybe it isn't such a terrible thing to have a boy named "Aubrey" even though its popularity has gone to the girls.
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I'd agree with you too. I think generally men seem to not be as fussed about their names as women and really the only men I've ever heard of complaining about their names were David, Scott and Peter, mainly because there is a huge amount of them.
I have friends with 'girly' names like Courtney, Ashley, Kelly and I even teach a Keeley and none of them have ever seemed to have an issue with it at all. Ashley is a pretty common boys name here in Australia. I also think the big distinction is that none of these are 'girls' names, they were originally mens names and have turned unisex.
I have friends with 'girly' names like Courtney, Ashley, Kelly and I even teach a Keeley and none of them have ever seemed to have an issue with it at all. Ashley is a pretty common boys name here in Australia. I also think the big distinction is that none of these are 'girls' names, they were originally mens names and have turned unisex.
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"I have known several males who had names that were more common for girls in their generation: Kelly, Kelsey, Ashley, Courtney, Madison, etc. who were all perfectly happy with their names. In fact, I have never met a boy with a girly name who disliked their name."
You've exceeded my suspension of disbelief. I have met a man named Ashley. He hated his name. The only male I have heard of name Kelsey is Kelsey Grammar, and he was born before the feminization of Kelsey. I am highly skeptical that you know this many men with the names you listed that were born during the same generation that these names were popular for women. If you really do know a man named Courtney who was born between 1990-1997, did you ask him how he felt about his name or are you assuming?
You've exceeded my suspension of disbelief. I have met a man named Ashley. He hated his name. The only male I have heard of name Kelsey is Kelsey Grammar, and he was born before the feminization of Kelsey. I am highly skeptical that you know this many men with the names you listed that were born during the same generation that these names were popular for women. If you really do know a man named Courtney who was born between 1990-1997, did you ask him how he felt about his name or are you assuming?
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I knew a Leslie in middle school. His only complaint about his name was the hard Z vs. soft S sound in the middle. He had a strong preference for one and it would drive him nuts when somebody used the other. Our science teacher used the “wrong” one all the time, and this normally nice, obedient kid always had huge behavioural problems in that class. I’m not sure if it was forgetfulness, arrogance or trolling on the teacher’s end, but he didn’t seem to even try. But the gendering of Leslie wasn’t a problem.
I went to school with a boy named Kelly Lynn (fn/ln) all through elementary and high school. We ran in different circles, (he was a popular kid) but I do know that he was often embarrassed by his name. I know he attempted suicide after high school. Obviously his name wouldn’t have caused that, but he was often more melancholy about it than angry. Whether that was a symptom of his personality or whether the hated name was a symptom of a disconnect at home, who knows? Probably had nothing to do with it at all.
I also had a high school friend who changed his name from Courtney to Lee when he transitioned FtM. Despite both names being technically unisex he felt Courtney was too feminine. It may also have been about shaking off the past.
I went to school with a boy named Kelly Lynn (fn/ln) all through elementary and high school. We ran in different circles, (he was a popular kid) but I do know that he was often embarrassed by his name. I know he attempted suicide after high school. Obviously his name wouldn’t have caused that, but he was often more melancholy about it than angry. Whether that was a symptom of his personality or whether the hated name was a symptom of a disconnect at home, who knows? Probably had nothing to do with it at all.
I also had a high school friend who changed his name from Courtney to Lee when he transitioned FtM. Despite both names being technically unisex he felt Courtney was too feminine. It may also have been about shaking off the past.
This message was edited 8/4/2020, 6:01 AM
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I say Leslie with a hard Z and it would be a real effort to say it with a soft S. I doubt it was deliberate on the teacher's part, and I doubt it was forgetfulness, arrogance, or trolling. It's just hard to say one little sound differently than you normally do and do that all of the time. The response on the part of Leslie was a ridiculous overreaction.
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If somebody asks you repeatedly to pronounce their name a certain way, I consider it rude not to try.
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yes ...
Especially if it's not a sound foreign to them; like few westerners would pronounce Chinese names exactly as they are pronounced in Chinese, but the s versus z sound should be easy to manage and shouldn't need repeated reminders.
It's about as rude as repeatedly calling someone by a nn when they've asked specifically to be called by another nn or by the full name. It may not be intentional rudeness, but it is rude.
Especially if it's not a sound foreign to them; like few westerners would pronounce Chinese names exactly as they are pronounced in Chinese, but the s versus z sound should be easy to manage and shouldn't need repeated reminders.
It's about as rude as repeatedly calling someone by a nn when they've asked specifically to be called by another nn or by the full name. It may not be intentional rudeness, but it is rude.
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No, this particular instance is silly. My own name can be an example, although I'm not certain how to explain it accurately in type. Most people pronounce the first syllable of my name with the A sound like the A sound in "sand". But a few people, including my own father, pronounce the first syllable with a flatter A sound, like the A sound in "cat". It's a matter of accent, I think, my father said a few other words differently than the rest of the family, such as "rowt" for "route" when the rest of the family said "root". (Although he was from the same area as the rest of us so I don't know why this was so.) It's one little sound, a matter of accent more than anything else. I can just see myself pitching fits at people who use the "cat" syllable and not the "can" syllable.
This message was edited 8/4/2020, 9:10 AM
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My point, though, is that it's one little sound. Not something like "Cynthia" rather than "Cindy" or pronouncing Aisling the correct way as ASH-lyn instead of the way that most Americans would initially think, AYZ-lin. I really think I'd find it impossible to say "LES-lie" rather than "LEZ-lie" on a regular basis. It's like trying to "correct" an accent.
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Yeah, I didn't and I don't want to carry this conversation/argument on ad nauseum, but it's exceed my suspension of disbelief as well.
As I said, huge disconnect.
As I said, huge disconnect.
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Well, nobody will ever fix that if they just follow the trends. Girls with boys names used to be "weird", but now it's trendy or normal (at least for some names). That popularity shift never would have happened without the initial trailblazers naming their daughters something nobody had ever seen on a girl before. In terms of advantages, having a boys name on your resume might get you the job, but once they realize you're a girl you'll still have to deal with sexism. A girls name might make it harder to get the job, but once they realize you're a boy you'll be treated however they treat other boys.
As long as you actually like the name and don't get offended if your kid changes their name, there's no harm in naming your baby whatever you want. It's not like names are permanent anyway. If you realize you want a different name when you start going to school, you can change it unofficially in no time at all (when all you have to do is tell people "I go by [name] now"), and then you'll have plenty of time to change it legally before you need to get a drivers license etc. People talk about names as if they're branded onto you, but there's nothing stopping anyone from changing their name (except maybe saving up for the legal fees depending on where you live and what the rules are). The maximum it could cost is around $400. And you'll have several years to come up with the money before your kid is old enough to need legal ID that you'd need extra money to change after the fact.
As long as you actually like the name and don't get offended if your kid changes their name, there's no harm in naming your baby whatever you want. It's not like names are permanent anyway. If you realize you want a different name when you start going to school, you can change it unofficially in no time at all (when all you have to do is tell people "I go by [name] now"), and then you'll have plenty of time to change it legally before you need to get a drivers license etc. People talk about names as if they're branded onto you, but there's nothing stopping anyone from changing their name (except maybe saving up for the legal fees depending on where you live and what the rules are). The maximum it could cost is around $400. And you'll have several years to come up with the money before your kid is old enough to need legal ID that you'd need extra money to change after the fact.
This message was edited 8/3/2020, 4:15 PM
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LOL ummm
We need more gentle boys in this warped, misogynistic, femicidal world. I'm a fag, and if I ever had a son, I'd want him to be gentle.
We need more gentle boys in this warped, misogynistic, femicidal world. I'm a fag, and if I ever had a son, I'd want him to be gentle.
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James already sounds pretty feminine/neutral as a sound. Elizabeth honestly doesn't sound gendered at all, but it's a long complicated name associated with girls. It's better to compare it to a girl named Christopher or something.
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I think that Elizabeth is strong and slightly proud. It does not project sweet and gentle although Beth does. There are lots of girl names that I consider strong but not masculine. Boy names that give off a soft vibe to me are Wendell, Adrian, Wesley, Ambrose, etc...
This message was edited 8/3/2020, 10:38 AM
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Yeah, I figured you'd say something like this.
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Glad I'm steadfast enough to be predictable!
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