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HelpRe: Never mind (m)
in reply to a message by SlytherClaw
No, it wasn't you. Don't worry about that. No need to apologize.
It goes back quite a long way. I think the first time we talked about this subject was back in 2013. And it got heated, but that was really my fault, because my initial response was rather aggressive, and I didn't explain myself clearly right away.
To me, this isn't something that should even be open to debate, in the same way that "Is it okay to refuse service to blacks in a restaurant?" shouldn't even be open to debate. The first time, I fully expected everyone to see my point and for everyone to agree with me. I thought that they were all being unknowingly insensitive and that they would be happy and grateful that their insensitivity was being pointed out to them. I was surprised when not everyone responded that way. And the time will never come when everyone does, and since I don't think this is something that should be open to debate, of course, it just leads to frustration.
At this time, it is mind-boggling to me that an African-American said as much as I've been saying for several years, and people are still not accepting it.
It goes back quite a long way. I think the first time we talked about this subject was back in 2013. And it got heated, but that was really my fault, because my initial response was rather aggressive, and I didn't explain myself clearly right away.
To me, this isn't something that should even be open to debate, in the same way that "Is it okay to refuse service to blacks in a restaurant?" shouldn't even be open to debate. The first time, I fully expected everyone to see my point and for everyone to agree with me. I thought that they were all being unknowingly insensitive and that they would be happy and grateful that their insensitivity was being pointed out to them. I was surprised when not everyone responded that way. And the time will never come when everyone does, and since I don't think this is something that should be open to debate, of course, it just leads to frustration.
At this time, it is mind-boggling to me that an African-American said as much as I've been saying for several years, and people are still not accepting it.
This message was edited 7/17/2017, 4:46 PM
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Replies
Isn't that kind of the basis of white privileged though? To not even realize that you have it. As a staunch supporter of its existence I've found that often time people don't know any better because it is SO ingrained. They can't admit to it because they literally can't see it. That all comes down to ignorance and unwillingness.
I also feel like maybe I haven't expressed myself correctly here? Like, I know I have a white privilege that should exclude me from having opinions about black names, but I also feel like this particular name is an exception. We aren't judging the use of Saint, or God'iss here, we are looking at a name that is used MORE frequently as a word than a title. Because outside of African-American naming culture there is still an "American" naming culture, abiding by what words are acceptable as names, that says that Sir is bad.
I also feel like maybe I haven't expressed myself correctly here? Like, I know I have a white privilege that should exclude me from having opinions about black names, but I also feel like this particular name is an exception. We aren't judging the use of Saint, or God'iss here, we are looking at a name that is used MORE frequently as a word than a title. Because outside of African-American naming culture there is still an "American" naming culture, abiding by what words are acceptable as names, that says that Sir is bad.
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Yes, white privilege is something that most whites don't know that they have.
I see your point about Sir. It wouldn't have been so bad if the comments were all along the lines of "This is going to present a practical problem in the context of the dominant culture", rather than "idiotic", "dumb", "risible" etc.
I see your point about Sir. It wouldn't have been so bad if the comments were all along the lines of "This is going to present a practical problem in the context of the dominant culture", rather than "idiotic", "dumb", "risible" etc.
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To be fair I think the intent of "dumb" and "idiotic" was to say that Sir was a poor choice. Maybe not, but that's how I saw it. It's "dumb" to use such a common word BECAUSE of the confusion it will likely cause. I know this is tricky, because people would likely still use words like dumb and idiotic in response to a name like Messiah also.
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I think I am beginning to understand where you're coming from. So it is wrong to ridicule a name from black culture on a black child, because of the context in which it was created as a name. Is this what you mean? There's a whole lot more going round in my brain about this, I have been thinking a lot about this conversation.
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Yes, that's it in a nutshell.
Imagine if you were part of a larger culture that had enslaved, then had disenfranchised, your ancestors. Imagine if your ancestors had had to always show deference to the dominant culture. Imagine if the dominant culture had prevented your ancestors from being anything but the poorest sharecroppers or domestic servants. Imagine if a member of the dominant culture could have killed any of your ancestors with impunity, but if one of your ancestors had killed a member of the dominant culture they would have been lynched without trial. Imagine if one of your male ancestors had done as much as whistled at a woman of the dominant culture, he would have been tortured and then killed. Imagine if the dominant culture found your ancestors so repulsive that they refused to share restrooms, drinking fountains, restaurants, theaters, and hotels with them, and made that into law.
Imagine that the names your ancestors had used were a part of this culture, the one that did this to your ancestors. If your ancestors had not been captured in Africa and brought to America as slaves, you would not today be naming your kids William, George, Mary, Sarah. So as a symbol of breaking free of the oppression, as a symbol of not tolerating it any longer, you create a separate naming culture.
And then imagine members of the dominant culture laughing at your names. Imagine that they say the names are ridiculous. Imagine that the first words that come out of their mouths when they see one are "ghetto" and "trashy". (Not saying anyone in this thread used those words, but it's very common.) Just imagine them judging them at all, even if occasionally the judgment is a positive one.
Imagine if you were part of a larger culture that had enslaved, then had disenfranchised, your ancestors. Imagine if your ancestors had had to always show deference to the dominant culture. Imagine if the dominant culture had prevented your ancestors from being anything but the poorest sharecroppers or domestic servants. Imagine if a member of the dominant culture could have killed any of your ancestors with impunity, but if one of your ancestors had killed a member of the dominant culture they would have been lynched without trial. Imagine if one of your male ancestors had done as much as whistled at a woman of the dominant culture, he would have been tortured and then killed. Imagine if the dominant culture found your ancestors so repulsive that they refused to share restrooms, drinking fountains, restaurants, theaters, and hotels with them, and made that into law.
Imagine that the names your ancestors had used were a part of this culture, the one that did this to your ancestors. If your ancestors had not been captured in Africa and brought to America as slaves, you would not today be naming your kids William, George, Mary, Sarah. So as a symbol of breaking free of the oppression, as a symbol of not tolerating it any longer, you create a separate naming culture.
And then imagine members of the dominant culture laughing at your names. Imagine that they say the names are ridiculous. Imagine that the first words that come out of their mouths when they see one are "ghetto" and "trashy". (Not saying anyone in this thread used those words, but it's very common.) Just imagine them judging them at all, even if occasionally the judgment is a positive one.
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Yeah. I get it now.
Thank you for having the patience to explain it like this. I apologise for my derisive comments.
Thank you for having the patience to explain it like this. I apologise for my derisive comments.
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Guys... :)
I love how this resolved. Props to you Katie and Ismene and to you queenv for all discussing this in a conversation that while it became kind of heated at times, no one resorted to name calling or anything and you guys all really listened to each other.
This isn't meant to be patronizing at all, I promise. It's really hard to have conversations about difficult topics with people we don't know in real life over text on a forum. People don't always express themselves properly in writing and we lose the tone and other nuances. We have had these debates turn SO ugly in the past and it just makes me really happy that some members here could have a really difficult discussion, coming at it from some different view points, and reach a conclusion from listening to one another.
Like really happy :)
I love how this resolved. Props to you Katie and Ismene and to you queenv for all discussing this in a conversation that while it became kind of heated at times, no one resorted to name calling or anything and you guys all really listened to each other.
This isn't meant to be patronizing at all, I promise. It's really hard to have conversations about difficult topics with people we don't know in real life over text on a forum. People don't always express themselves properly in writing and we lose the tone and other nuances. We have had these debates turn SO ugly in the past and it just makes me really happy that some members here could have a really difficult discussion, coming at it from some different view points, and reach a conclusion from listening to one another.
Like really happy :)
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I completely agree. That's what I love about this board. That, though conversations can get harsh sometimes, for the most part, we can have respectful, intellectual conversations. I was realizing last night how much this board has changed me and taught me about social behaviors, for lack of a better term, things that I never really would have learned just by interacting with people in every day life. So yeah, props to you all.
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Yes, I second the thanks to everyone who was open-minded and listened to me. I feel ashamed now for ranting about "This never goes anywhere!" This time, it did. Thanks.
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Don't feel ashamed! I'm so grateful you continued to try and explained in a way I understood :)
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It did go somewhere this time! :) Thanks to you for explaining it to us in a calm, rational manner. This has restored my faith in humanity a little bit.
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I PM'd you
:)
:)
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