New Post
Search
Help[Facts] Re: Amateratsu and Uzume
in reply to a message by ClaudiaS
You are probably right with Uzume as being confused with uzumaku. However, I did dig out my kanji dictionary.
“V- heaven
çí- I couldn't find this one
—- woman
‰F- heaven
Žó”„- receiving sales
Which is pretty much what Claudia said.
“V- heaven
çí- I couldn't find this one
—- woman
‰F- heaven
Žó”„- receiving sales
Which is pretty much what Claudia said.
1
Replies
The U+5b87 宇 Kanji which you write `heaven' and ClaudiaS calls `another heaven' is a Kanji for house; building, structure, eaves which as Hanzi usually means room or universe (This is the historical parent of the /u/ in hiragana ㆠand and katakana 宇). The first Kanji U+5929 天 on the other hand is sky (etymologically, ceiling above man), heaven; god, celestial which is used for the meanings day, sky, heaven. The U+53d7 å— is indeed receive (etymologically hand as in claw+hand as in and+boat standing for its sound jau), accept, get; bear, stand, but is also to endure or simply a passive marker. The U+58f2 売 is interesting, because it means sell, but etymologically it (and U+5356 å–) derives as a simplification of U+8ce3 è³£ where sell (etymologically compound of output, itself from plant + receptacle meaning earth; and goods, itself net + sea-shells) has been extended in meaning to betray and show off: I do not know the history of the mythology well enough to know if that is relevant.
The U+923f 鈿 that you could not find and ClaudiaS called an `ornamental hairpiece' is usually hairpin; gold inlaid work, filigree. To complete U+5973 女 is, of course, woman (etymologically only one breast has survived in the pictogram: the cognate mother preserves both and the nipples), girl, feminine, female (and is the ancestor of /me/ in hiragana ゠and katakana メ).
Disclaimer: I know no Kanji/Hanji/Katakana/Hiragana/Japanese/Chinese or anything relevant to the above, whereas ClaudiaS and egyptianpanda obviously do: so treating all the above as made up is not likely to be far wrong :-)
The U+923f 鈿 that you could not find and ClaudiaS called an `ornamental hairpiece' is usually hairpin; gold inlaid work, filigree. To complete U+5973 女 is, of course, woman (etymologically only one breast has survived in the pictogram: the cognate mother preserves both and the nipples), girl, feminine, female (and is the ancestor of /me/ in hiragana ゠and katakana メ).
Disclaimer: I know no Kanji/Hanji/Katakana/Hiragana/Japanese/Chinese or anything relevant to the above, whereas ClaudiaS and egyptianpanda obviously do: so treating all the above as made up is not likely to be far wrong :-)
1
Thank you!
Thank you!
Thank you!
This message was edited 7/10/2010, 7:26 AM
1
The U+5b87 宇 Kanji which you write `heaven' and ClaudiaS calls `another heaven' is a Kanji for house; building, structure, eaves which as Hanzi usually means room or universe (This is the historical parent of the /u/ in hiragana う and and katakana 宇). The first Kanji U+5929 天 on the other hand is sky (etymologically, ceiling above man), heaven; god, celestial which is used for the meanings day, sky, heaven. The U+53d7 受 is indeed receive (etymologically hand as in claw+hand as in and+boat standing for its sound jau), accept, get; bear, stand, but is also to endure or simply a passive marker. The U+58f2 売 is interesting, because it means sell, but etymologically it (and U+5356 卖) derives as a simplification of U+8ce3 賣 where sell (etymologically compound of output, itself from plant + receptacle meaning earth; and goods, itself net + sea-shells) has been extended in meaning to betray and show off: I do not know the history of the mythology well enough to know if that is relevant.
The U+923f 鈿 that you could not find and ClaudiaS called an `ornamental hairpiece' is usually hairpin; gold inlaid work, filigree. To complete U+5973 女 is, of course, woman (etymologically only one breast has survived in the pictogram: the cognate mother preserves both and the nipples), girl, feminine, female (and is the ancestor of /me/ in hiragana め and katakana メ).
Disclaimer: I know no Kanji/Hanji/Katakana/Hiragana/Japanese/Chinese or anything relevant to the above, whereas ClaudiaS and egyptianpanda obviously do: so treating all the above as made up is not likely to be far wrong :-)
The U+923f 鈿 that you could not find and ClaudiaS called an `ornamental hairpiece' is usually hairpin; gold inlaid work, filigree. To complete U+5973 女 is, of course, woman (etymologically only one breast has survived in the pictogram: the cognate mother preserves both and the nipples), girl, feminine, female (and is the ancestor of /me/ in hiragana め and katakana メ).
Disclaimer: I know no Kanji/Hanji/Katakana/Hiragana/Japanese/Chinese or anything relevant to the above, whereas ClaudiaS and egyptianpanda obviously do: so treating all the above as made up is not likely to be far wrong :-)
1
I am not sure that the historical etymology of each kanji helps in understanding the intended "meaning" of a Japanese name, though it is certainly interesting. :)
My educated guess is that the kanji 鈿女 for Uzume are older than 宇受売. Because the kanji "uzu" 鈿 is rather obscure, at some point it was most likely replaced by the very common 宇 and 受 (宇受 would be pronounced "uju" in modern Japanese but is easily readable as "uzu".) In this case, the meaning of 宇 and 受 would be irrelevant because they would be used for their phonetic quality only.
This does not explain why the kanji for the last syllable, "me," would have been altered from 女 from 売. "Me" is an accepted reading for both those kanji, and 女 "female" seems more in line with the name of a mythological character than 売 "sell." But in any case, I doubt that "receive" and "sell" had anything to do with the original meaning of the name.
If this theory is correct, then the original or at least older meaning of Uzume might be loosely interpreted as "heavenly ornamented woman."
My educated guess is that the kanji 鈿女 for Uzume are older than 宇受売. Because the kanji "uzu" 鈿 is rather obscure, at some point it was most likely replaced by the very common 宇 and 受 (宇受 would be pronounced "uju" in modern Japanese but is easily readable as "uzu".) In this case, the meaning of 宇 and 受 would be irrelevant because they would be used for their phonetic quality only.
This does not explain why the kanji for the last syllable, "me," would have been altered from 女 from 売. "Me" is an accepted reading for both those kanji, and 女 "female" seems more in line with the name of a mythological character than 売 "sell." But in any case, I doubt that "receive" and "sell" had anything to do with the original meaning of the name.
If this theory is correct, then the original or at least older meaning of Uzume might be loosely interpreted as "heavenly ornamented woman."
This message was edited 7/9/2010, 7:52 PM
1
The interesting thing is that these myths are so old, that they come down to us from texts written in classical chinese, so it is not at all clear to me whether we should use a chinese/korean mindset of `understanding' each character in depth, or the Japanese mindset of the primacy of the spoken language. But, I am out of my depth here: I do not know enough about any of these cultures, past or present ... I quoted the historical etymology simply for fun.
OK, back to the point, do you know if Uzume appears in the Kojiki or Nihon Shoki, and what spelling is used there?
OK, back to the point, do you know if Uzume appears in the Kojiki or Nihon Shoki, and what spelling is used there?
1
Well, now you're asking me! That is not my area of expertise and I don't have copies of those texts. If either is available online, I could search for the names, but that is about as far as I can go.
To the best of my knowledge, the mythological characters in question are indigenous to Japan. Whether the very earliest texts written in Japan (written in classical Chinese, without doubt, but actually originating in Japan) show the now-typical attempts to match Chinese characters to Japanese phonology without regard to semantics, is a question for a historian.
To the best of my knowledge, the mythological characters in question are indigenous to Japan. Whether the very earliest texts written in Japan (written in classical Chinese, without doubt, but actually originating in Japan) show the now-typical attempts to match Chinese characters to Japanese phonology without regard to semantics, is a question for a historian.
1