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Help[Facts] Re: Seeking Name Meaning Unexpected/Surprise
in reply to a message by la-petite-rachel
I honestly did not know why I, being a native speaker of Hindi (I am trilingual from childhood: I speak the standard Calcutta dialect of Bengali, the Delhi dialect of Hindusthani and the North Indian dialect of English as my native tongues) and a fluent speaker in Sanskrit, and who has actually enjoyed a lot of the old literature in each of these languages, have not come across the word karishmaa. May be because it did not exist in these languages?
So, I looked up the one language that is not in the list above, but which is often confused with it. And, yes, it does exist in Urdu. The word کرشمه derives from Farsi, and is properly kirishma, but karashma and karishma are folk pronunciations for it, and it is glossed as "Wink, nod, glance; looking languishingly through half-shut eyes, amorous look or gesture, side-glance, ogling, blandishment, coquetry (cf. kaṭāksha);—a phenomenon, a wonder, a miracle; a talisman, a charm". A Farsi dictionary says "A wink, nod, glance; looking languishingly through half-shut eyes, an amorous gesture or blandishment, coquetry; consenting, agreeing with a look of love or benignity; also refusing with an oblique or side-glance; a phenomenon, a wonder, a miracle; a talisman, a charm" and another glosses the word as "ogling amorous gesture , nod , wink". I did not follow it back to its Indoeuropean roots.
Karisma Kapoor was born with this name and changed it to Karisma (which she consciously linked to the Greek word in interviews, and which she wants to pronounce as karizmaa, not karishmaa), probably for numerological reasons.
Also the Greek kharisma (divine gift) derives from the kharis (grace, etc.) which is related to khairein (to rejoice at) which comes from ProtoIndoEuropean gher (to desire). English greed comes from Old English graedig (voracious/covetous) which comes from proto-Germanic graedagaz, from graeduz, which also comes from gher. Obviously, we could argue at length about each of these transitions, and whether the two gher's are the same root, but which of these were you doubting in the first place so that I can focus on that?
And, I do not trust the baby name sites for meanings and etymologies of Indian words or names: few of them are correct, and far fewer are accurate for things I am sure of. There is no word that is a feminine suffixed form of vismaya in either Sanskrit, Hindi or Bengali, and I would like to see some solid evidence before accepting such a form in any Indian language. vismaya is an abstract common noun, and such nouns typically do not take any semantic gender suffix (i.e., some words will have a feminine suffix because of grammatical morphological rules, but not because of any semantic reason). These feminine suffixes are typically added only to make names, at which point it ceases to be an abstract common noun, but equally so it cannot change its meaning. So, the difference you quote between vismaYa and vismaYA was probably not meant as a distinction.
So, I looked up the one language that is not in the list above, but which is often confused with it. And, yes, it does exist in Urdu. The word کرشمه derives from Farsi, and is properly kirishma, but karashma and karishma are folk pronunciations for it, and it is glossed as "Wink, nod, glance; looking languishingly through half-shut eyes, amorous look or gesture, side-glance, ogling, blandishment, coquetry (cf. kaṭāksha);—a phenomenon, a wonder, a miracle; a talisman, a charm". A Farsi dictionary says "A wink, nod, glance; looking languishingly through half-shut eyes, an amorous gesture or blandishment, coquetry; consenting, agreeing with a look of love or benignity; also refusing with an oblique or side-glance; a phenomenon, a wonder, a miracle; a talisman, a charm" and another glosses the word as "ogling amorous gesture , nod , wink". I did not follow it back to its Indoeuropean roots.
Karisma Kapoor was born with this name and changed it to Karisma (which she consciously linked to the Greek word in interviews, and which she wants to pronounce as karizmaa, not karishmaa), probably for numerological reasons.
Also the Greek kharisma (divine gift) derives from the kharis (grace, etc.) which is related to khairein (to rejoice at) which comes from ProtoIndoEuropean gher (to desire). English greed comes from Old English graedig (voracious/covetous) which comes from proto-Germanic graedagaz, from graeduz, which also comes from gher. Obviously, we could argue at length about each of these transitions, and whether the two gher's are the same root, but which of these were you doubting in the first place so that I can focus on that?
And, I do not trust the baby name sites for meanings and etymologies of Indian words or names: few of them are correct, and far fewer are accurate for things I am sure of. There is no word that is a feminine suffixed form of vismaya in either Sanskrit, Hindi or Bengali, and I would like to see some solid evidence before accepting such a form in any Indian language. vismaya is an abstract common noun, and such nouns typically do not take any semantic gender suffix (i.e., some words will have a feminine suffix because of grammatical morphological rules, but not because of any semantic reason). These feminine suffixes are typically added only to make names, at which point it ceases to be an abstract common noun, but equally so it cannot change its meaning. So, the difference you quote between vismaYa and vismaYA was probably not meant as a distinction.
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Replies
Karishma is a Farsi term meaning miracle. It is used in Urdu as an alternative to muajiza which is an Arabic word meaning the same and is more often used in religious context. As Urdu language developed it incorporated Arabic, Persian, Turkish and some Pashto vocabulary into a local venaculars of Dehli known as Khari Boli etc. in the army camps - Urdu means horde/army and is the original form of the anglasised Horde or orde. It was also alternatively called Hindawi and for a time written in Devanagri script.
in early 20th century language riots against Urdu and its modified Arabic script began in Behar and spread all over north India. This movement against Urdu was incited by Hindu revivalist parties. They insistex on the removal of Urdu as official language and instead offered alternative in a language written in Devanagri called Hindi wi
hich was purged of all 'foreign words I.e. Arabic and Farsi etc. and replaced with Sancritic vocabulary. The paradox is that the words Hindi, Hindu and Hindustan are Perso-Arabic terms for Sind/Sindhu. But there is more: the so-called Hindi that is spoken and written in secular discourse is no different from Urdu with all of its Arabic, Farzi and Turkic vocabulay. In fact these words are prefdrrex over Sanstritic terms. Bollywood Hindi is Urdu at best and its colloqual version Hindustani at the least but not Hindi per se.
. Thus to answer the question is Karishma a Hindu kr Muslim in origin? The answer is it is Muslim because its from word used
Urdu word of Farsi t
etymology meaning miracle. If some Indians are using it as a name does not make it Indian nor of Hindi origin. Following the name adopted by a Hindu film star whose family origin is from Peshawar, capitan of the old North West Frontier, now Khyber PakhtunKhwa (KPK). The motivation to use Urdu word as a name for their daughter that chimes with a Hindu name I.e. Kareena may be an attempt bridge the two seems to be the reason. That an actress from an acting family of Pathsn origins but Hindu by faith is leading many to incorrectly think its Hindi/Hindu by origin.
.
in early 20th century language riots against Urdu and its modified Arabic script began in Behar and spread all over north India. This movement against Urdu was incited by Hindu revivalist parties. They insistex on the removal of Urdu as official language and instead offered alternative in a language written in Devanagri called Hindi wi
hich was purged of all 'foreign words I.e. Arabic and Farsi etc. and replaced with Sancritic vocabulary. The paradox is that the words Hindi, Hindu and Hindustan are Perso-Arabic terms for Sind/Sindhu. But there is more: the so-called Hindi that is spoken and written in secular discourse is no different from Urdu with all of its Arabic, Farzi and Turkic vocabulay. In fact these words are prefdrrex over Sanstritic terms. Bollywood Hindi is Urdu at best and its colloqual version Hindustani at the least but not Hindi per se.
. Thus to answer the question is Karishma a Hindu kr Muslim in origin? The answer is it is Muslim because its from word used
Urdu word of Farsi t
etymology meaning miracle. If some Indians are using it as a name does not make it Indian nor of Hindi origin. Following the name adopted by a Hindu film star whose family origin is from Peshawar, capitan of the old North West Frontier, now Khyber PakhtunKhwa (KPK). The motivation to use Urdu word as a name for their daughter that chimes with a Hindu name I.e. Kareena may be an attempt bridge the two seems to be the reason. That an actress from an acting family of Pathsn origins but Hindu by faith is leading many to incorrectly think its Hindi/Hindu by origin.
.
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