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Help[Facts] Re: Yessica
in reply to a message by Lumia
I am sure you are right about the English influence on names beginning with Y, but the families I worked with were almost all Mexican-born and their primary language was Spanish. In addition, this "English j" sound (I don't know how to make IPA symbols appear here, or I would use them) was also used for the letter ll (as in llamar). I'm not an expert on Spanish pronunciation, but I think it is an oversimplification to say that the letters ll and y are always pronounced as IPA /j/ in every Spanish dialect.
This message was edited 4/20/2009, 2:30 PM
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Replies
(I also have problems with the IPA symbols.)
First at all, I never said that the letter LL is always pronounced as /j/ in every Spanish dialect, because that is not true (and, for instance, not for my dialect). The correct pronunciation of the LL is a palatal lateral approximant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_lateral_approximant
The pronunciation of the Y is a palatal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_fricative
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_approximant
depending on the context.
It is very usual in some areas (in Spain, for instance) that LL and Y are pronounced just as Y. And that is also true for Mexico:
"Yeísmo: Del mismo modo, no se diferencia la pronunciación de y y ll; ambas son una aproximante palatal sonora /j/ como la y del español estándar."
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialecto_mexicano#Fon.C3.A9tica_y_fonolog.C3.ADa
The only exception to these pronunciations is in the Rioplatense dialect (Uruguay and some areas of Argentina, as Buenos Aires), where Y and LL were pronounced with the sound of the French J (ZH) or, and this pronunciation is growing up among the young generations, with the sound of the English SH.
Perhaps they were pronouncing the palatal /j/ in the affricate allophone and to English ears that sounded as an English J (like when I hear the English vowels and distribute the sounds not like they really are but matching with my vocalic distribution).
First at all, I never said that the letter LL is always pronounced as /j/ in every Spanish dialect, because that is not true (and, for instance, not for my dialect). The correct pronunciation of the LL is a palatal lateral approximant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_lateral_approximant
The pronunciation of the Y is a palatal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_fricative
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_approximant
depending on the context.
It is very usual in some areas (in Spain, for instance) that LL and Y are pronounced just as Y. And that is also true for Mexico:
"Yeísmo: Del mismo modo, no se diferencia la pronunciación de y y ll; ambas son una aproximante palatal sonora /j/ como la y del español estándar."
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialecto_mexicano#Fon.C3.A9tica_y_fonolog.C3.ADa
The only exception to these pronunciations is in the Rioplatense dialect (Uruguay and some areas of Argentina, as Buenos Aires), where Y and LL were pronounced with the sound of the French J (ZH) or, and this pronunciation is growing up among the young generations, with the sound of the English SH.
Perhaps they were pronouncing the palatal /j/ in the affricate allophone and to English ears that sounded as an English J (like when I hear the English vowels and distribute the sounds not like they really are but matching with my vocalic distribution).
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I think that last part of Lumia's explanation is a good observation. I've noted the same thing when I'm trying to replicate a Spanish word. I think I'm saying it exactly the way the speaker does but they clearly don't agree. Then when we exaggerate the pronunciations, it is obvious that I haven't really "heard" the word properly. And sometimes I still can't say it correctly even when I can hear the difference.
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