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ArchivesCarl and Charles? Chicken or egg?
Carl says that it is a German form of Charles.
Charles says it comes from the Germanic Karl.
Karl says it is a German and Scandinavian form of Charles.
So which name came first?
Charles says it comes from the Germanic Karl.
Karl says it is a German and Scandinavian form of Charles.
So which name came first?
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Replies
I'm not an expert, but I believe:
'Karl' came first: Germanic meaning "man."
'Karl' spread North and East as normal.
It entered Latin and was rendered as 'Carolus.'
'Carolus' morphed into French 'Charles.'
'Charles' entered English without change.
When the 'c' form of 'Carl' began to equal the 'k' form in commonality I cannot say, but modernly this is common for many names (C/Karsten, K/Constantin, &c.) throughout northern Europe.
'Karl' came first: Germanic meaning "man."
'Karl' spread North and East as normal.
It entered Latin and was rendered as 'Carolus.'
'Carolus' morphed into French 'Charles.'
'Charles' entered English without change.
When the 'c' form of 'Carl' began to equal the 'k' form in commonality I cannot say, but modernly this is common for many names (C/Karsten, K/Constantin, &c.) throughout northern Europe.
This message was edited 10/29/2004, 1:25 AM
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Karl or Herbert?
Much more interesting than the question "chicken or egg?" is: What is the etymology of the name. This site has one derivation, quite commonly given on the web and in books: Old High German "karl, char(e/i)l" (man, free man). But it looks like since the late 1960s another explanation is more and more accepted (this is taken from a very reliable book: Das große Vornamen-Lexikon, Duden; W.Seibicke: HDV has the same): pet form of a name beginning with the Old High German element "heri" (army) + the Romanic ending "-olus", used in the area whe West Frankish and Romanic influences mingled. The Germanic H would be represented by a C in Romanic spelling, this is where the C or K came in.
W. Seibicke quotes Henning Kaufmann (1965: Untersuchungen zu altdeutschen Rufnamen. München (= Grundfragen der Namenkunde 3)):
Kaufmann "geht aus von einer Kosef. Háriolus zu german. *Charja-/Harja-, indoeurop. ‘korios ‘Heer’ (vgl. HER) aus, die sich zu lat. Carolus entwickelte"
Does anyone know more about this theory?
Andy ;—)
Much more interesting than the question "chicken or egg?" is: What is the etymology of the name. This site has one derivation, quite commonly given on the web and in books: Old High German "karl, char(e/i)l" (man, free man). But it looks like since the late 1960s another explanation is more and more accepted (this is taken from a very reliable book: Das große Vornamen-Lexikon, Duden; W.Seibicke: HDV has the same): pet form of a name beginning with the Old High German element "heri" (army) + the Romanic ending "-olus", used in the area whe West Frankish and Romanic influences mingled. The Germanic H would be represented by a C in Romanic spelling, this is where the C or K came in.
W. Seibicke quotes Henning Kaufmann (1965: Untersuchungen zu altdeutschen Rufnamen. München (= Grundfragen der Namenkunde 3)):
Kaufmann "geht aus von einer Kosef. Háriolus zu german. *Charja-/Harja-, indoeurop. ‘korios ‘Heer’ (vgl. HER) aus, die sich zu lat. Carolus entwickelte"
Does anyone know more about this theory?
Andy ;—)
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A karl, charl, carl, ceorl or cearl is a man, and a free man (as opposed to a thrall), but it more precisely means "señor", i.e. "old man" used as a term for a certain class of man, but also more simply where we might say "old man" today, there being no precise equivalent of "señor". The English forms Ceorl and Cearl (depending on the dialect) are recorded as names in the 6th and 9th C., but it's usually the final element of dithematic names and so not normally used alone. The OHG forms are Charl and Charal, but that may be the southern form, the MHG form recorded as Kerl, closer to the Dutch and Icelandic forms. Note that Karl does not appear as a name till quite late — aside from the English Cearl/Ceorl, Forstemann only records variations on Carolus, Carlefred, and variations on Carloman which may be derived from Carolus magnus. On the other hand Hariolus is really the wrong form to correspond to Carolus — the usual form is Heril, Herilo, later Herle or Romance Arle (the latter indistinguishable from Arl from Erl); Carolus more formally corresponds to Garo-, from Gar- spear(point), which also becomes Charo- and Caro- in Romance languages.
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I would LOVE to know more about this alternative theory pointing to "heri" or "hari". I've been searching but have gotten nowhere. I don't really know what to even look for. Has anyone found anything about this origin theory since 2004? Haha
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