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Hi,
I've posted before regarding names I'm turning up in my search for my Austrian ancestors (http://www.behindthename.com/bb/arcview.php?id=583092&board=gen) , and I've found a few more so I was wondering if you could help me out again.
I discovered that my great-great grandmother Perl/Pauline had a younger brother named Malke. Any suggestions about the meaning of the name?
Her father is listed as Juda Hirsch on Pauline's immigration documents, but in her marriage record as I.H. Einmaldank. Do you think its possible that the I is really a J standing for Juda and H for Hirsch?
Her mother's name is listed in her marriage record as Dresi Ginsburg. Any ideas about the name Dresi?
Also, maybe this is a stretch, but does anyone know about how surnames are passed on in Austrian culture? Even though Pauline immigrated and married under the name Perl Einmaldank, other later records show her as Pauline Ginsburg (for example, a 1900 census record and the recent obituary of one of her sons). Would women use their mother's maiden names instead of their father's surnames after a certain point? Any ideas?
One last question... Pauline's husband's mother's name (in their marriage record) is listed as "Cha. Lea Krochmal." Is Cha. a title or just an abbreviation of a first name?
Thank you very much for taking time to read this and for any help you can give me! Please ask questions if my lengthy explanation wasn't clear...
Sara
I've posted before regarding names I'm turning up in my search for my Austrian ancestors (http://www.behindthename.com/bb/arcview.php?id=583092&board=gen) , and I've found a few more so I was wondering if you could help me out again.
I discovered that my great-great grandmother Perl/Pauline had a younger brother named Malke. Any suggestions about the meaning of the name?
Her father is listed as Juda Hirsch on Pauline's immigration documents, but in her marriage record as I.H. Einmaldank. Do you think its possible that the I is really a J standing for Juda and H for Hirsch?
Her mother's name is listed in her marriage record as Dresi Ginsburg. Any ideas about the name Dresi?
Also, maybe this is a stretch, but does anyone know about how surnames are passed on in Austrian culture? Even though Pauline immigrated and married under the name Perl Einmaldank, other later records show her as Pauline Ginsburg (for example, a 1900 census record and the recent obituary of one of her sons). Would women use their mother's maiden names instead of their father's surnames after a certain point? Any ideas?
One last question... Pauline's husband's mother's name (in their marriage record) is listed as "Cha. Lea Krochmal." Is Cha. a title or just an abbreviation of a first name?
Thank you very much for taking time to read this and for any help you can give me! Please ask questions if my lengthy explanation wasn't clear...
Sara
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Replies
Sara, I am not sure who you are, but I want you to know that I am the granddaughter of Pauline, the daughter of her son, Henry Lampack. I have a copy of my grandparents' marriage certificate from 1906 framed on my wall, although both my grandparents died before I was born in 1950. I see that you posted this 12 year ago, so I have no idea if this will even reach you, but if you are interested in communicating, please do reach out. Perhaps we can help each other fill in some of the blanks.
Lily Bartels (born Norma Lampack)
lilytoyou@aol.com
Lily Bartels (born Norma Lampack)
lilytoyou@aol.com
1
I've lurked on this site before but this is my first time posting a reply. I was tempted to come out of lurking to post here because the names/ancestors you posted are similar to mine - except my g-g-grandmother was named Pauline Greenburg instead of Ginsburg!
Malka is a female Hebrew name. So in that example, I wonder if it's mistakenly entered as a brother when it was really a younger sister.
Juda being abbreviated as I. was because they pronounced Juda as "Yuda" - being Eastern European, the J would not be pronounced as in English.
Finally, I wanted to add that, in relation to your earlier linked post, Perl is a Yiddish name and not a Hebrew one. I know this because my mother's name is Paulee and she was always told as a child that her Hebrew name was Perl - until it came time for her bat mitzvah and they told her that Perl was not a Hebrew name, and she had to take Penina, which she still complains about to this day! However, I thought that was interesting because it's another example of Perl and the "Paula" family of names being linked in a Jewish woman.
Hope this helps :)
Malka is a female Hebrew name. So in that example, I wonder if it's mistakenly entered as a brother when it was really a younger sister.
Juda being abbreviated as I. was because they pronounced Juda as "Yuda" - being Eastern European, the J would not be pronounced as in English.
Finally, I wanted to add that, in relation to your earlier linked post, Perl is a Yiddish name and not a Hebrew one. I know this because my mother's name is Paulee and she was always told as a child that her Hebrew name was Perl - until it came time for her bat mitzvah and they told her that Perl was not a Hebrew name, and she had to take Penina, which she still complains about to this day! However, I thought that was interesting because it's another example of Perl and the "Paula" family of names being linked in a Jewish woman.
Hope this helps :)
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Thanks for your help!
I just looked at the ship manifest again after reading your comment about Malke, and even though the Ellis Island website lists the child as a male, the ship manifest clearly shows that Malke is a female! The name actually looks more like Molke, but Malka seems more likely as the family was Jewish.
It puzzles me why "Juda Hirsch" would become "I. H. Einmaldank" but at least its plausible that they were the same person because of the I.H. initials...
Thanks for your comments about the name Perl and Pauline too. It's been very confusing to me to try and figure out why our family records show her as Paula, her immigration and marriage records show Perl and 3 later census records show Pauline! It's interesting to me that we don't see my g-g-grandmother taking a Hebrew name though. She seems to have gone from Yiddish to and English name. Do you think its possible she might have had a Jewish name too, but that its just not recorded?
Thanks,
Sara
I just looked at the ship manifest again after reading your comment about Malke, and even though the Ellis Island website lists the child as a male, the ship manifest clearly shows that Malke is a female! The name actually looks more like Molke, but Malka seems more likely as the family was Jewish.
It puzzles me why "Juda Hirsch" would become "I. H. Einmaldank" but at least its plausible that they were the same person because of the I.H. initials...
Thanks for your comments about the name Perl and Pauline too. It's been very confusing to me to try and figure out why our family records show her as Paula, her immigration and marriage records show Perl and 3 later census records show Pauline! It's interesting to me that we don't see my g-g-grandmother taking a Hebrew name though. She seems to have gone from Yiddish to and English name. Do you think its possible she might have had a Jewish name too, but that its just not recorded?
Thanks,
Sara
1
Thanks for your comments about the name Perl and Pauline too. It's been very confusing to me to try and figure out why our family records show her as Paula, her immigration and marriage records show Perl and 3 later census records show Pauline! It's interesting to me that we don't see my g-g-grandmother taking a Hebrew name though. She seems to have gone from Yiddish to and English name. Do you think its possible she might have had a Jewish name too, but that its just not recorded?
----
Sorry, just getting back to this now.
Back in the generation that my great-grandparents (and I assume yours) immigrated from Eastern Europe, Yiddish was the language used by Jews. Hebrew didn't become a popularly spoken language until the creation of Israel in the 1940's. It was a dead language like Latin before Israel revitalized it. Even today, my grandparents speak a little bit of Yiddish, and use lots of Yiddish words and phrases in their English, but they don't speak Hebrew - it's just not a colloquial language to them in the same way.
So, yes, it makes sense to me that an Austrian Jewish woman from the 1900's would have a Yiddish given name (Perl) that was changed to an English name (Paula or Pauline) when she came to Ellis Island. She may have had a Hebrew name for religious reasons, but that would not be a name that she was ever called by or used in real life. Also keep in mind that back then, girls didn't have bat mitzvahs. So she would not have needed a Hebrew name for her bat mitzvah like a boy would.
Hope this helps :)
----
Sorry, just getting back to this now.
Back in the generation that my great-grandparents (and I assume yours) immigrated from Eastern Europe, Yiddish was the language used by Jews. Hebrew didn't become a popularly spoken language until the creation of Israel in the 1940's. It was a dead language like Latin before Israel revitalized it. Even today, my grandparents speak a little bit of Yiddish, and use lots of Yiddish words and phrases in their English, but they don't speak Hebrew - it's just not a colloquial language to them in the same way.
So, yes, it makes sense to me that an Austrian Jewish woman from the 1900's would have a Yiddish given name (Perl) that was changed to an English name (Paula or Pauline) when she came to Ellis Island. She may have had a Hebrew name for religious reasons, but that would not be a name that she was ever called by or used in real life. Also keep in mind that back then, girls didn't have bat mitzvahs. So she would not have needed a Hebrew name for her bat mitzvah like a boy would.
Hope this helps :)
1
Hi!
I think there must be some misunderstandings, f.e. "Dresi": Resi was a very popular nickname in Austria, a short form of Theresia; when they talk about persons, people often add an article, f.e. "der Thomas", "die Anna" etc, like "the Catherine", something like that. In dialect it often is shortened, like "d´Anna"; so if I read "Dresi" it´s like "die Resi", but I don´t know if it´s possible that such a form appears in an official document.
I.H. could really mean Juda Hirsch, in the documents of former times they weren´t as strict as today;-)
Malke is used in northern Germany, also Silesia and so on. I could imagine that it´s just a short form, just like Malte and so on; it stand for Mark, or a form of Malachy, I think there are a few possibilities. Try to ask sb. of the region over there, in Austria this name is not known.
It´s like that: if your parents aren´t married, you get the name of your mum; if you get married, you take the name of your husband (in former times it was always like that, today it´s possible to take a double name or to keep your own name, but most women still take the name of their husbands). If you divorce, you can choose: either you return to your own family name, or you keep the name of your ex.
If you divorce and decide to take your original surname, your children will still wear their father´s name. You can change it, but normally they will keep it.
And so on; I hope you got the system somehow, but in fact there are many possibilities. I can explain more if you want to, but I don´t want to confuse you.
If a woman took the name of her husband, in her documents will always appear "geb. Einmaldank" means "born ...". And so on.
There is no title in Austria beginning with Cha. Maybe it´s an abbreviation of Chaya? Or any other hebrew name? Or maybe there are jewish titles beginning with it, but I think it´s more the first syllabe of a first name, because in those times women had rarely titles, I guess.
I hope I could help you a bit. Sorry if my explanations are a little bit confuse:-) Miriam
I think there must be some misunderstandings, f.e. "Dresi": Resi was a very popular nickname in Austria, a short form of Theresia; when they talk about persons, people often add an article, f.e. "der Thomas", "die Anna" etc, like "the Catherine", something like that. In dialect it often is shortened, like "d´Anna"; so if I read "Dresi" it´s like "die Resi", but I don´t know if it´s possible that such a form appears in an official document.
I.H. could really mean Juda Hirsch, in the documents of former times they weren´t as strict as today;-)
Malke is used in northern Germany, also Silesia and so on. I could imagine that it´s just a short form, just like Malte and so on; it stand for Mark, or a form of Malachy, I think there are a few possibilities. Try to ask sb. of the region over there, in Austria this name is not known.
It´s like that: if your parents aren´t married, you get the name of your mum; if you get married, you take the name of your husband (in former times it was always like that, today it´s possible to take a double name or to keep your own name, but most women still take the name of their husbands). If you divorce, you can choose: either you return to your own family name, or you keep the name of your ex.
If you divorce and decide to take your original surname, your children will still wear their father´s name. You can change it, but normally they will keep it.
And so on; I hope you got the system somehow, but in fact there are many possibilities. I can explain more if you want to, but I don´t want to confuse you.
If a woman took the name of her husband, in her documents will always appear "geb. Einmaldank" means "born ...". And so on.
There is no title in Austria beginning with Cha. Maybe it´s an abbreviation of Chaya? Or any other hebrew name? Or maybe there are jewish titles beginning with it, but I think it´s more the first syllabe of a first name, because in those times women had rarely titles, I guess.
I hope I could help you a bit. Sorry if my explanations are a little bit confuse:-) Miriam
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