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Archivesquestion about an origin...not a name...(m)
I noticed that some of the discussions/posts have been about origins of customs or usages. I have a question about the word vitriol. Maybe someone has the ready resources to find an answer for me. Vitriolic acid was a common word for sulfuric acid and vitriol is a pretty commonly used word still. I saw in the movie Jules and Jim that the female lead dumped a bottle of vitriolic acid down the drain in one scene. My question is what common use did people once have for sulfuric acid that it would become part of the common language. Jules and Jim was set in about 1900 or so. Any leads about this would be appreciated. One of those questions I have been wondering about for years. Thanks.
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Replies
A drug? (A tale of ether)
I have found a page focused on the use of Sweet vitriol (Ether).
Read it through though and the documents. As you will see sulphuric ether is tested as well as a kind of tranquilizer even though it does not work well, since it has the exactly opposite effect, namely making the patient active. Just listen to this except:
"The first experiment was with sulphuric ether, the odor of which was
readily recognized in the preparation employed by Dr. Morton. Ether inhaled in vapor is well known to produce symptoms similar to those
produced by the nitrous oxide. In my own former experience the exhilaration has been quite as great, though perhaps less pleasurable, than that of this gas, or of the Egyptian haschish. It seemed probable that the ether might be so long inhaled as to produce excessive inebriation and insensibility; but in several experiments the exhilaration was so considerable that the subject became uncontrollable, and refused to inspire through the apparatus."
I have not seen the film you speak of and have no idea what the scene you refere to is about, but could the fumes of vitriol acid be used as a kind of drug?
Perhaps I am far out but if you could explain the scene more detailed I would have a better chance to know which areas I should be looking at for an answer.
This is the page. Click the icon saying: "About Ether"
'Tis an interesting tale in itself.
http://www.anesthesia-nursing.com/
-Selwyn
I have found a page focused on the use of Sweet vitriol (Ether).
Read it through though and the documents. As you will see sulphuric ether is tested as well as a kind of tranquilizer even though it does not work well, since it has the exactly opposite effect, namely making the patient active. Just listen to this except:
"The first experiment was with sulphuric ether, the odor of which was
readily recognized in the preparation employed by Dr. Morton. Ether inhaled in vapor is well known to produce symptoms similar to those
produced by the nitrous oxide. In my own former experience the exhilaration has been quite as great, though perhaps less pleasurable, than that of this gas, or of the Egyptian haschish. It seemed probable that the ether might be so long inhaled as to produce excessive inebriation and insensibility; but in several experiments the exhilaration was so considerable that the subject became uncontrollable, and refused to inspire through the apparatus."
I have not seen the film you speak of and have no idea what the scene you refere to is about, but could the fumes of vitriol acid be used as a kind of drug?
Perhaps I am far out but if you could explain the scene more detailed I would have a better chance to know which areas I should be looking at for an answer.
This is the page. Click the icon saying: "About Ether"
'Tis an interesting tale in itself.
http://www.anesthesia-nursing.com/
-Selwyn
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Spirit of sulfur, or oil of sulfur (I am on to something here read on)
Your request has made me curious myself sir so I continued to search the depths of the net after my last post. I have found more material which points more directly to Green Vitriol (Sulphur acid) as a medicament used during the period i question.
Listen to this:
"In the early 18th century there were two processes in use by which sulfuric acid was made. One was by distilling green vitriol (ferrous sulfate) and collecting the acid vapors evolved, a method which gave the acid its early name 'oil of vitriol.' The second method was by burning sulfur and condensing the acid fumes produced; the simplest procedure was to suspend over the sulfur a glass bell, the process thus known as the bell method. This was the way in which apothecaries had long prepared for the medicaments an acid known as spirit of sulfur, or oil of sulfur which had at first been supposed to differ from oil of vitriol but which by the end of the 17th century was recognized to be essentially the same."
This link will take you to the page I took it from:
http://www.as.udayton.edu/www/hstweb/ch~6.htm
Yet, I will post the rest of the acid section here too:
"The Chemical Industry during the Early Industrial Revolution
Certainly the modern chemical industry had its origins at this time. And therefore at the very time that chemistry is being radically restructured by Lavoisier and others on the continent, in Great Britain a revolution was taking place in scale and process in what we now call factories. Several chemicals, including nitric acid, sulfuric acid, and the alkalis were made in large scale using more efficient processes to satisfy an emerging environment increasingly based upon volume, lower costs, and economics of scale.
Aqua fortis, or nitric acid, was the first of the mineral acids to have come into appreciable demand, and a material important for a variety of leading trades by the middle of the 18th century.
Your request has made me curious myself sir so I continued to search the depths of the net after my last post. I have found more material which points more directly to Green Vitriol (Sulphur acid) as a medicament used during the period i question.
Listen to this:
"In the early 18th century there were two processes in use by which sulfuric acid was made. One was by distilling green vitriol (ferrous sulfate) and collecting the acid vapors evolved, a method which gave the acid its early name 'oil of vitriol.' The second method was by burning sulfur and condensing the acid fumes produced; the simplest procedure was to suspend over the sulfur a glass bell, the process thus known as the bell method. This was the way in which apothecaries had long prepared for the medicaments an acid known as spirit of sulfur, or oil of sulfur which had at first been supposed to differ from oil of vitriol but which by the end of the 17th century was recognized to be essentially the same."
This link will take you to the page I took it from:
http://www.as.udayton.edu/www/hstweb/ch~6.htm
Yet, I will post the rest of the acid section here too:
"The Chemical Industry during the Early Industrial Revolution
Certainly the modern chemical industry had its origins at this time. And therefore at the very time that chemistry is being radically restructured by Lavoisier and others on the continent, in Great Britain a revolution was taking place in scale and process in what we now call factories. Several chemicals, including nitric acid, sulfuric acid, and the alkalis were made in large scale using more efficient processes to satisfy an emerging environment increasingly based upon volume, lower costs, and economics of scale.
Aqua fortis, or nitric acid, was the first of the mineral acids to have come into appreciable demand, and a material important for a variety of leading trades by the middle of the 18th century.
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Conclusion and a note
Making a qualified guess from the material I found I say, that the vitriolic acid bottle in the Jules and Jim movie must be a kind of medicament.
As a note I looked on the net for "Jules and Jim ". From what I found it sounds like a very French movie to me. Especially the way the woman is portraited. Not that there is anything wrong with that and perhaps I only notice it because I am myself from the "cold" north where women are more often like sunshine than they are like fire *winks*
Making a qualified guess from the material I found I say, that the vitriolic acid bottle in the Jules and Jim movie must be a kind of medicament.
As a note I looked on the net for "Jules and Jim ". From what I found it sounds like a very French movie to me. Especially the way the woman is portraited. Not that there is anything wrong with that and perhaps I only notice it because I am myself from the "cold" north where women are more often like sunshine than they are like fire *winks*
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Thank You
Selwyn ,
You write beautifully. I enjoyed your fire and sunshine comparison. Thank you for the information. I am leaning toward the ether-type compound or perhaps the character was a dressmaker or milliner who needed the compound for dyeing cloth or making felt. Thank you so much. Jules and Jim wasn't that great of a movie...just the vitriolic acid intrigued me. Thank you again for your response.
Zara
Selwyn ,
You write beautifully. I enjoyed your fire and sunshine comparison. Thank you for the information. I am leaning toward the ether-type compound or perhaps the character was a dressmaker or milliner who needed the compound for dyeing cloth or making felt. Thank you so much. Jules and Jim wasn't that great of a movie...just the vitriolic acid intrigued me. Thank you again for your response.
Zara
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You are very welcome
And I thank you for your kind words about my writing.
And I thank you for your kind words about my writing.
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Ooo, baby...
"...perhaps I only notice it because I am myself from the "cold" north where women are more often like sunshine than they are like fire *winks*"
****** How old are you, again, Selwyn ? :)
Anyway, thanks for all the in-depth research you did on vitriolic acid. It was very interesting!
-- Nanaea
"...perhaps I only notice it because I am myself from the "cold" north where women are more often like sunshine than they are like fire *winks*"
****** How old are you, again, Selwyn ? :)
Anyway, thanks for all the in-depth research you did on vitriolic acid. It was very interesting!
-- Nanaea
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*blushes*
It was meant to be more innocent than it sounded I guess *smiles*
I did not mean to sound as if I am terrible experienced in such matters, for that I am not.
I just wanted to point out how different women are portraited in poetic French movies compared to poetic scandinavian movies.
In French poetic movies women tend to be innocent but lethal to the men who meet them. Like fire which consumes in passion what it touches.
e.g Jules and Jim
In scandinavian poetic movies women tend to be gentle and kind.
Like sunshine which makes the small, but important things grow stronger and easier to believe in.
e.g. Det skallede spøgelse (the bald ghost)
I am of course speaking in general terms now, since examples of the opposite could be found among both French and Scandinavian poetic movies.
It was meant to be more innocent than it sounded I guess *smiles*
I did not mean to sound as if I am terrible experienced in such matters, for that I am not.
I just wanted to point out how different women are portraited in poetic French movies compared to poetic scandinavian movies.
In French poetic movies women tend to be innocent but lethal to the men who meet them. Like fire which consumes in passion what it touches.
e.g Jules and Jim
In scandinavian poetic movies women tend to be gentle and kind.
Like sunshine which makes the small, but important things grow stronger and easier to believe in.
e.g. Det skallede spøgelse (the bald ghost)
I am of course speaking in general terms now, since examples of the opposite could be found among both French and Scandinavian poetic movies.
1
Selwyn
Just in the movies? *raised eyebrow*.
As a student (and a voracious reader), I've found a number of interesting differences between the "Romantic" regions (Spain, France, Italy, Portugal, Greece, Latin America , etc.) and the "Northern" regions (Scandinavia, Finland, Northern Russia, Siberia, Alaska, Northern Canada, etc.).
There's a story by Susan Cooper based on an actual folktale from (I think) the British Isles about a man who falls in love with a woman who turns out to be a selkie (a sealwoman). Perhaps Nanaea can locate the title of the book (for it escapes me right now (Here, Title! Here, Title!) *beckoning whisles*).
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
Just in the movies? *raised eyebrow*.
As a student (and a voracious reader), I've found a number of interesting differences between the "Romantic" regions (Spain, France, Italy, Portugal, Greece, Latin America , etc.) and the "Northern" regions (Scandinavia, Finland, Northern Russia, Siberia, Alaska, Northern Canada, etc.).
There's a story by Susan Cooper based on an actual folktale from (I think) the British Isles about a man who falls in love with a woman who turns out to be a selkie (a sealwoman). Perhaps Nanaea can locate the title of the book (for it escapes me right now (Here, Title! Here, Title!) *beckoning whisles*).
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
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I admit it :)
It is not only in the movies. Not that French and scandinavians are different people. In the end we are all humans alike to each other in many ways. Yet, mens romantic dreams of women in the northern regions seem to differ from the romantic dreams of women only a little further south in France. Perhaps it is the different ways of the light the two places as a friend suggest once we considered the matter.
It is not only in the movies. Not that French and scandinavians are different people. In the end we are all humans alike to each other in many ways. Yet, mens romantic dreams of women in the northern regions seem to differ from the romantic dreams of women only a little further south in France. Perhaps it is the different ways of the light the two places as a friend suggest once we considered the matter.
1
"My question is what common use did people once have for sulfuric acid that it would become part of the common language. Jules and Jim was set in about 1900 or so. Any leads about this would be appreciated. One of those questions I have been wondering about for years. Thanks."
****** Sulfuric acid was a discovery of the Middle Ages, purported to have been made by alchemists. Prior to that, the strongest acid available was acetic acid -- or vinegar -- which, along with human urine, was used in the tanning and dying industries. Sulfuric acid replaced these, as it made a more effective solution in which to soak leather hides for softening in the tanning process.
The medieval alchemists produced sulfuric acid by combining "green vitriol" with silica -- hence the interchangeable use of the words "vitriolic acid" and "sulfuric acid". The word "vitriol" itself comes from the Latin word "vitreus", meaning "made of glass; having a glass-like appearance". This is because vitriolic acid is see-through, like glass.
-- Nanaea
****** Sulfuric acid was a discovery of the Middle Ages, purported to have been made by alchemists. Prior to that, the strongest acid available was acetic acid -- or vinegar -- which, along with human urine, was used in the tanning and dying industries. Sulfuric acid replaced these, as it made a more effective solution in which to soak leather hides for softening in the tanning process.
The medieval alchemists produced sulfuric acid by combining "green vitriol" with silica -- hence the interchangeable use of the words "vitriolic acid" and "sulfuric acid". The word "vitriol" itself comes from the Latin word "vitreus", meaning "made of glass; having a glass-like appearance". This is because vitriolic acid is see-through, like glass.
-- Nanaea
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Thank you for your response. That is the only info about vitriolic acid I have ever been able to find either. I keep thinking there must have been some other household use for it. Not everyone would be doing their own hide tanning, especially in a city/town and the volumes required don't mesh with widespread use and the smaller apothecary type jars of the time. I don't know if the vitriolic acid just had some sort of symbolism in the movie I referred to. Just one of those things...thought I would ask it here. Thank you for your response.
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Not having seen *Jules & Jim*, I wouldn't know. Some one else here may know, though. Keep checking in with us. :)
-- Nanaea
-- Nanaea
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