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ArchivesRe: Why am I not surprised that the Name Police are backed by religion?
in reply to a message by Mar
There will always be people who are dissatisfied with the names their parents gave them -- even if those names are of the mainstream variety. And those people will seek to change their names upon reaching adulthood, which is their right.
The more power that you give to your government (and giving government the power to determine what you should or should not name your own child is INSANE), the less sovereignty you will have over your own life.
-- Nanaea
The more power that you give to your government (and giving government the power to determine what you should or should not name your own child is INSANE), the less sovereignty you will have over your own life.
-- Nanaea
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Replies
ok, there are always people not satisfied with their name, I agree.
But read carefully:
The list came as a response to the GROWING number of Malaysians who are applying to change their birth names.
and personally I think parents who name their child, 007 or this: http://www.newbabynews.net/hospitals/stf33/public/stf33birthannouncement.pl?babyID=h33-440 or Hunchback are the ones that are INSANE, and protecting their children against names such as these is necessary imo. (I do admit that these rules may be too strict, and that it would be best to review each doubtful case seprately)
But read carefully:
The list came as a response to the GROWING number of Malaysians who are applying to change their birth names.
and personally I think parents who name their child, 007 or this: http://www.newbabynews.net/hospitals/stf33/public/stf33birthannouncement.pl?babyID=h33-440 or Hunchback are the ones that are INSANE, and protecting their children against names such as these is necessary imo. (I do admit that these rules may be too strict, and that it would be best to review each doubtful case seprately)
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I'd rather be protected from the government.
"The list came as a response to the GROWING number of Malaysians who are applying to change their birth names."
If there is truly a GROWING number of Malaysians applying to change their birth names, then obviously there must also be a GROWING number of Malaysians who will be highly unlikely to give their own children the sort of names which past generations were likely to give to *their* children.
There is NO (and never should be) need for government coercion in such a matter. Besides, who the hell is the goddamn government to say precisely which names are "acceptable" and which are not? Are you really content with the idea of government officials telling you what to name your child?
I don't know in which country you live, but you must have a tremendous amount of faith in the way your government is running your nation, to feel also that your government has the wisdom to instruct parents in what to name their children. Personally, I'd be happy if my own government (U.S. of A.) would just get its goddamn nose out of the Middle East, so don't even get me started about the government poking its goddamn nose into the business of parents naming their children.
"...and personally I think parents who name their child... are the ones that are INSANE, and protecting their children against names such as these is necessary imo."
You can think they're insane, and call them insane as well, and that's your prerogative. You can also pretend all you want that legislating what people may or may not name their children is "protecting" children, but the reality is that it has less to do with genuine "protection" and more to do with appeasing your own sensibilities.
Whatever somebody else chooses to name their child, same as how they choose to dress their child or where they choose to send their child for schooling, is really none of your business. And certainly not the business of the goddamn government.
-- Nanaea
"The list came as a response to the GROWING number of Malaysians who are applying to change their birth names."
If there is truly a GROWING number of Malaysians applying to change their birth names, then obviously there must also be a GROWING number of Malaysians who will be highly unlikely to give their own children the sort of names which past generations were likely to give to *their* children.
There is NO (and never should be) need for government coercion in such a matter. Besides, who the hell is the goddamn government to say precisely which names are "acceptable" and which are not? Are you really content with the idea of government officials telling you what to name your child?
I don't know in which country you live, but you must have a tremendous amount of faith in the way your government is running your nation, to feel also that your government has the wisdom to instruct parents in what to name their children. Personally, I'd be happy if my own government (U.S. of A.) would just get its goddamn nose out of the Middle East, so don't even get me started about the government poking its goddamn nose into the business of parents naming their children.
"...and personally I think parents who name their child... are the ones that are INSANE, and protecting their children against names such as these is necessary imo."
You can think they're insane, and call them insane as well, and that's your prerogative. You can also pretend all you want that legislating what people may or may not name their children is "protecting" children, but the reality is that it has less to do with genuine "protection" and more to do with appeasing your own sensibilities.
Whatever somebody else chooses to name their child, same as how they choose to dress their child or where they choose to send their child for schooling, is really none of your business. And certainly not the business of the goddamn government.
-- Nanaea
This message was edited 7/31/2006, 10:49 AM
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Sing it.
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Singin' it LOUD
I'd rather be protected FROM the gub'mint,
Than coddled like a baby on its knee,
'Cause the gub'mint is not my freakin' nanny,
And only *I* can say what's best for ME.
Wooo hooo. ba da, ba da, ba da da daaaaa
And if I choose to name my child "Scooter",
That ain't nobody else's goddamn bizz.
But y'all can let the gub'mint pwn yo' azzez --
On *me*, the gub'mint ain't allowed to pizz.
Sing it wid me, now!
But y'all can let the gub'mint pwn yo' azzez --
On *meeeeeee*
Wooo hooo
I say, on *meeeeee*, now
Yah!
The gub'mint
Woooooo ooo ooo oo!
Ain't allowed tooooo
PIZZ!
-- Nanaea
I'd rather be protected FROM the gub'mint,
Than coddled like a baby on its knee,
'Cause the gub'mint is not my freakin' nanny,
And only *I* can say what's best for ME.
Wooo hooo. ba da, ba da, ba da da daaaaa
And if I choose to name my child "Scooter",
That ain't nobody else's goddamn bizz.
But y'all can let the gub'mint pwn yo' azzez --
On *me*, the gub'mint ain't allowed to pizz.
Sing it wid me, now!
But y'all can let the gub'mint pwn yo' azzez --
On *meeeeeee*
Wooo hooo
I say, on *meeeeee*, now
Yah!
The gub'mint
Woooooo ooo ooo oo!
Ain't allowed tooooo
PIZZ!
-- Nanaea
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Standin' o' vashun :)
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*ROTFLMAO*
Bravo! I feel I've witnessed some ingenious street theater! Fantastic!
~Lillian~
Proud daughter of Ann and John
Proud sister of Lauren and Leah
Proud wife of David
Proud mother of Alexander, Scarlett, Sophia, and Gideon
Bravo! I feel I've witnessed some ingenious street theater! Fantastic!
~Lillian~
Proud daughter of Ann and John
Proud sister of Lauren and Leah
Proud wife of David
Proud mother of Alexander, Scarlett, Sophia, and Gideon
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nt
This message was edited 8/1/2006, 5:45 AM
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*claps*
Damn straight!
Damn straight!
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I heart you, Nanaea.
- mirfak
- mirfak
This message was edited 7/31/2006, 11:28 AM
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*heart* backatcha, Mirfak. :)
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I appreciate the fact that you wnat the government to keep their nose out of personal business. And I wouldn't be happy with a government that tells me what to name my child (like governments who have name lists), but I wouldn't have a problem with a government that tells what is absolutely unacceptable (like calling your child 007). I'm from the Netherlands and as far I know there are a few naming rules here: You can't give your child a common Dutch surname as a first name, and you can't call your child God (not sure about God in other languages) or Jesus.
For me it's more important that children have a name that isn't a burden to them than it is for the parents to do whatever they want. They're raising a child not a pet. They have to think about the child's future. Anyone who has the ability to sleep with another person and is fertile can become a parent, that doesn't mean that all of those people are all thinking what's best for their child in the long run when they name them. There are people who name their children as a joke (example: we named him Jimmy Danger so he can say Danger is my middle name. (I don't even mind this one so much, but I'm sure you can imagine worse jokes)). I would just like to see that it's prevented that a child gets a stamp on his forehead just because of his/her name.
Of course this is my opinion and you have yours. That's the way it should be, the world would become a freightening place is everyone had the same view on everything.
ps. could you use a little less blasphemy. Not that I'm very religious or anything, I just think it's a bit rude.
For me it's more important that children have a name that isn't a burden to them than it is for the parents to do whatever they want. They're raising a child not a pet. They have to think about the child's future. Anyone who has the ability to sleep with another person and is fertile can become a parent, that doesn't mean that all of those people are all thinking what's best for their child in the long run when they name them. There are people who name their children as a joke (example: we named him Jimmy Danger so he can say Danger is my middle name. (I don't even mind this one so much, but I'm sure you can imagine worse jokes)). I would just like to see that it's prevented that a child gets a stamp on his forehead just because of his/her name.
Of course this is my opinion and you have yours. That's the way it should be, the world would become a freightening place is everyone had the same view on everything.
ps. could you use a little less blasphemy. Not that I'm very religious or anything, I just think it's a bit rude.
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I'll tell you what's "rude"...
"For me it's more important that children have a name that isn't a burden to them than it is for the parents to do whatever they want. They're raising a child not a pet. They have to think about the child's future."
Your perception of what constitutes a "burden" in a name may be viewed differently by others -- particularly by the bearer of that name.
As for my use of "blasphemy" being "rude"... Let me tell you what real rudeness is: The presumption in suggesting that a parent who names her child something out of the ordinary like, oh, I dunno, maybe "Nanaea", might be better suited to raising a pet, or is not thinking about that child's future.
Goddamnit. :)
-- Nanaea
"For me it's more important that children have a name that isn't a burden to them than it is for the parents to do whatever they want. They're raising a child not a pet. They have to think about the child's future."
Your perception of what constitutes a "burden" in a name may be viewed differently by others -- particularly by the bearer of that name.
As for my use of "blasphemy" being "rude"... Let me tell you what real rudeness is: The presumption in suggesting that a parent who names her child something out of the ordinary like, oh, I dunno, maybe "Nanaea", might be better suited to raising a pet, or is not thinking about that child's future.
Goddamnit. :)
-- Nanaea
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I DON'T have a problem with 'out of the ordinary'! (I like out of the ordinary names, but the keyword is NAMES, check my personal name list and see howmany names I like that people most definately consider 'out of the ordinary') I do have a problem with naming your child Banana, because that child will surely get teased and will grow up having problems with his/her name. The Malsian rules are too strict imo, but the idea of rule giving isn't that strange. There are names that truly offend people (http://www.behindthename.com/bb/arcview.php?id=540223&board=baby) and their are names that just aren't names (like Table or Cholera). I agree with you that it's up to the bearer of the name to consider it a burden or not, I don't think the names that run a very high risk of this should be used (so Banana is out and Cinnamon is debatable (sp?)). The debatable (sp?) names should be allowed, parents should have the final word on that, but the names that truly offend a large group of people for whatever reasonable reason and that have a very high risk of being a burden shouldn't be allowed.
Mar.
Mar.
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I have, admittedly only once, encountered Cinnamon as a surname. So while it might not be acceptable in the Netherlands (or is it only Dutch surnames that are blacklisted?) it would be pretty production-line in the USA, along with all the Taylors and Camerons etc.
The time I saw it was on a list of successful examination candidates. The full name of the child was Grant David Cinnamon, and in my head I instantly heard: " ... but don't let him near the ginger" ... wonder if there's a rule in Malaysia that names can't be sentences!
The time I saw it was on a list of successful examination candidates. The full name of the child was Grant David Cinnamon, and in my head I instantly heard: " ... but don't let him near the ginger" ... wonder if there's a rule in Malaysia that names can't be sentences!
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It's very common Dutch names that are banned. A Dutch surname that is hardly used is ok, and surnames from other countries are ok too (this is all as far as I know). So Jansen and DeVries are certainly not accepted.
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Dutch rules about names
Wat zijn de regels voor de keuze van de voornaam voor kinderen door de ouders?
Als ouders bent u in principe vrij om de voornaam van uw kind te kiezen.
Beperkingen
Er gelden twee beperkingen. Ten eerste mag de naam geen ongepaste naam zijn. Een ongepaste naam is bijvoorbeeld:
een naam die in strijd is met de geldende normen;
een spottende naam, waarvan de drager in zijn leven alleen maar last kan hebben;
een naam die bestaat uit een absurd groot aantal namen.
Ten tweede mag de voornaam geen bestaande achternaam zijn. Een bestaande achternaam is wel mogelijk als dit ook een gebruikelijke voornaam is. Een gebruikelijke voornaam is een naam die min of meer algemeen gebruikelijk is.
translation (may be bad english, because I'm translating as littarally as possible):
What are the rules for the choice of the firstname for children by the parents?
As parent you are in principle free to choose the firstname of your child.
Restictions:
There are two restrictions. First the name is not allowed to be inappropriate. An inappropriate name is for example:
A name that is against the 'current' norms; (Not sure how to translate that better)
A mocking name, by which the bearer will only be bothered in his life;
a name that is made up of an absurd big number of names.
Second, the firstname can't be an existing lastname. An existing lastname is possible if it is also a usual first name. A usual first name is a name that is more or less commonly used.
(a note from me: with this they mean for example: Thomas, it's a lastname, but also a usual first name)
Wat zijn de regels voor de keuze van de voornaam voor kinderen door de ouders?
Als ouders bent u in principe vrij om de voornaam van uw kind te kiezen.
Beperkingen
Er gelden twee beperkingen. Ten eerste mag de naam geen ongepaste naam zijn. Een ongepaste naam is bijvoorbeeld:
een naam die in strijd is met de geldende normen;
een spottende naam, waarvan de drager in zijn leven alleen maar last kan hebben;
een naam die bestaat uit een absurd groot aantal namen.
Ten tweede mag de voornaam geen bestaande achternaam zijn. Een bestaande achternaam is wel mogelijk als dit ook een gebruikelijke voornaam is. Een gebruikelijke voornaam is een naam die min of meer algemeen gebruikelijk is.
translation (may be bad english, because I'm translating as littarally as possible):
What are the rules for the choice of the firstname for children by the parents?
As parent you are in principle free to choose the firstname of your child.
Restictions:
There are two restrictions. First the name is not allowed to be inappropriate. An inappropriate name is for example:
A name that is against the 'current' norms; (Not sure how to translate that better)
A mocking name, by which the bearer will only be bothered in his life;
a name that is made up of an absurd big number of names.
Second, the firstname can't be an existing lastname. An existing lastname is possible if it is also a usual first name. A usual first name is a name that is more or less commonly used.
(a note from me: with this they mean for example: Thomas, it's a lastname, but also a usual first name)
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I can read Dutch actually - but sometimes a black hole opens up. And your translation is very clear.
I suppose that means that you can't use my all-time favourite surname as a first name: VerLoren van Themaat. Always looks like: Lost the subject ... and would count as cruel and unusual, but always gives me a happy moment; especially as there's a large and distinguished family with the name where I live who are, of all things, lawyers!
And the absurdly long chain of names? There was a proud father somewhere in South America, no doubt Brazil or Argentina, who had a child on the day his team won the World Cup; fortunately or unfortunately it was a daughter whom he named Maria + the given names of the entire team. Twelve names, for one small child. Whooh!
All the best from South Africa
I suppose that means that you can't use my all-time favourite surname as a first name: VerLoren van Themaat. Always looks like: Lost the subject ... and would count as cruel and unusual, but always gives me a happy moment; especially as there's a large and distinguished family with the name where I live who are, of all things, lawyers!
And the absurdly long chain of names? There was a proud father somewhere in South America, no doubt Brazil or Argentina, who had a child on the day his team won the World Cup; fortunately or unfortunately it was a daughter whom he named Maria + the given names of the entire team. Twelve names, for one small child. Whooh!
All the best from South Africa
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I thought you could read Dutch, that's why I didn't only posted the translation. And I sure hope that girl likes football (but I'm sure her daddy will make sure that she does :)
btw LOL at VerLoren van Themaat! (and yes calling your child VerLoren alone is sort of strange to say the least (because it means "Lost" for non-Dutch speakers))
btw LOL at VerLoren van Themaat! (and yes calling your child VerLoren alone is sort of strange to say the least (because it means "Lost" for non-Dutch speakers))
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Political correctness gone nuts
"I do have a problem with naming your child Banana... and their are names that just aren't names (like Table or Cholera)."
How many children have you actually encountered named "Banana"? Or "Cholera"? Just because somebody MIGHT give their child an absurd name does not justify any government's pre-emptive strike in the legislating of naming children.
Furthermore, while you congratulate yourself on not having a problem with "out of the ordinary" names, you neglect the fact that those whom you would blindly empower with making the decisions as to what is or is not "acceptable" might be likely to find a number of those entries on YOUR "personal names list" to be absurd or cacophonous and, therefore, illegal to name your child.
More government "protection" = less FREEDOM for all. Here in the U.S. we already have the goddamn Patriot Act -- we don't need an additional, goddamn Patronymic Act.
As for people getting "offended" over other people's personal names (NAMES, of all things, for crapsake), I have no patience whatsoever for such damn silly people. Political correctness is the security blanket for tiresome, small minds.
-- Nanaea
"I do have a problem with naming your child Banana... and their are names that just aren't names (like Table or Cholera)."
How many children have you actually encountered named "Banana"? Or "Cholera"? Just because somebody MIGHT give their child an absurd name does not justify any government's pre-emptive strike in the legislating of naming children.
Furthermore, while you congratulate yourself on not having a problem with "out of the ordinary" names, you neglect the fact that those whom you would blindly empower with making the decisions as to what is or is not "acceptable" might be likely to find a number of those entries on YOUR "personal names list" to be absurd or cacophonous and, therefore, illegal to name your child.
More government "protection" = less FREEDOM for all. Here in the U.S. we already have the goddamn Patriot Act -- we don't need an additional, goddamn Patronymic Act.
As for people getting "offended" over other people's personal names (NAMES, of all things, for crapsake), I have no patience whatsoever for such damn silly people. Political correctness is the security blanket for tiresome, small minds.
-- Nanaea
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First of all I have no idea what Patriot Act is. I'm sure you have a good reason to have a problem with it.
Ok, I haven't met a Banana, I have met people with other names that fall in the same category of names that aren't names. As far as I know they all were laughed at because of their names at some point.
I do value freedom, but NOT at the cost of everything. There are more things I value besides freedom. (Just picture a country without laws at all, you'd have all the freedom you want, but I wouldn't want to live their..)
And not being small minded also includes trying to understand other people, see things from their point of view and seeing why something might offend someone else (without calling them small minded before knowing their point of view), in my opinion. After that you can decide whether the fact that they are offended is a result of small mindedness or having values and morals. I'd be offended if a someone named their child God or my future kid was in class with a kid named Thegreatestkidever. I don't consider myself small minded (yes, you can say that small minded people never perceive themselves as small minded, if you like) and I don't think you know me well enough to call me small minded, just because I can possibly get offended over someone else's name.
Ok, I haven't met a Banana, I have met people with other names that fall in the same category of names that aren't names. As far as I know they all were laughed at because of their names at some point.
I do value freedom, but NOT at the cost of everything. There are more things I value besides freedom. (Just picture a country without laws at all, you'd have all the freedom you want, but I wouldn't want to live their..)
And not being small minded also includes trying to understand other people, see things from their point of view and seeing why something might offend someone else (without calling them small minded before knowing their point of view), in my opinion. After that you can decide whether the fact that they are offended is a result of small mindedness or having values and morals. I'd be offended if a someone named their child God or my future kid was in class with a kid named Thegreatestkidever. I don't consider myself small minded (yes, you can say that small minded people never perceive themselves as small minded, if you like) and I don't think you know me well enough to call me small minded, just because I can possibly get offended over someone else's name.
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It's still none o' yer bizznizz
"I'd be offended if a someone named their child God or my future kid was in class with a kid named Thegreatestkidever."
You get offended too easily. Leather up, for crapsake.
And don't be thinking that you or anyone else has a right to make laws restricting other people in their choice of names for their own children.
Because, you have no more right to tell someone he can't name his kid "God" or "Adonai" (a favorite among hippies -- and, yes, that includes Jewish hippies, too), than some theistic neo-pagan has a right to tell you that you can't name your daughter "Artemis" (a name I noticed on your "personal names list") because they feel that would be disrespectful to "The Goddess".
-- Nanaea
"I'd be offended if a someone named their child God or my future kid was in class with a kid named Thegreatestkidever."
You get offended too easily. Leather up, for crapsake.
And don't be thinking that you or anyone else has a right to make laws restricting other people in their choice of names for their own children.
Because, you have no more right to tell someone he can't name his kid "God" or "Adonai" (a favorite among hippies -- and, yes, that includes Jewish hippies, too), than some theistic neo-pagan has a right to tell you that you can't name your daughter "Artemis" (a name I noticed on your "personal names list") because they feel that would be disrespectful to "The Goddess".
-- Nanaea
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Might be, but it's your opinion I get offended too easily, for me it comes with the values I have. You cmay tell me I shouldn't be offended when someone calls their child God, but I will get offended, and I don't mind that I get offended (for the record: I'm not a follower of any traditional religion, but I still see the idea of God as something I respect). I still don't see freedom as the highest of reachable (sp?) goals, Like I said before: I'm all for freedom, but not at the cost of everything.
But maybe we should drop this discussion, because it's sort of turning in an "it IS"-"it's NOT" discussion. Let me shake your hand and thank you for letting me see your point of view.
But maybe we should drop this discussion, because it's sort of turning in an "it IS"-"it's NOT" discussion. Let me shake your hand and thank you for letting me see your point of view.
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*shake* :)
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Mar, that was most commendable
While I agree with Nanaea on the legislation of names, I commend you for the way you've concluded your share of this discussion.
"Let me shake your hand and thank you for letting me see your point of view."
I highly respect that. Very well done.
~Lillian~
Proud daughter of Ann and John
Proud sister of Lauren and Leah
Proud wife of David
Proud mother of Alexander, Scarlett, Sophia, and Gideon
While I agree with Nanaea on the legislation of names, I commend you for the way you've concluded your share of this discussion.
"Let me shake your hand and thank you for letting me see your point of view."
I highly respect that. Very well done.
~Lillian~
Proud daughter of Ann and John
Proud sister of Lauren and Leah
Proud wife of David
Proud mother of Alexander, Scarlett, Sophia, and Gideon
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Mar a true class act :)
I miss the horned girl you used to have in your profile ;)
I miss the horned girl you used to have in your profile ;)
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thank you Lillian
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For what it's worth, I agree with you, Mar. I think the government *does* have a role to play in curbing the worst excesses of bad naming.
People tend to forget that their beliefs about what constitutes a 'right' are cultural, not universal. The fact that some countries take a more restricted approach to naming doesn't mean that the populace of those countries is somehow oppressed; it just means that their culture - of which the government is a part - thinks of naming as something that requires some restriction. In their culture, they don't have the right to name their children whatever they want, and it is the government's business to intervene when necessary.
Riots in Malaysia over unpopular decisions are not uncommon, but I've never heard of them rioting over name restrictions :-D
♦ Chrisell ♦
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. - J.R.R. Tolkien.
People tend to forget that their beliefs about what constitutes a 'right' are cultural, not universal. The fact that some countries take a more restricted approach to naming doesn't mean that the populace of those countries is somehow oppressed; it just means that their culture - of which the government is a part - thinks of naming as something that requires some restriction. In their culture, they don't have the right to name their children whatever they want, and it is the government's business to intervene when necessary.
Riots in Malaysia over unpopular decisions are not uncommon, but I've never heard of them rioting over name restrictions :-D
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. - J.R.R. Tolkien.
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Thanks for sharing your opnion, I was beginning to feel lonely in my point of view here :)
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Ha! There is more than one kinda party we could have fun in, Nan :P
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