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ArchivesRe: The Etymology of the Name Laodice
in reply to a message by Eugene Shubert
The Ancient Greek name "LAODIKE" (Laodice) derives from the noun "LAODIKOS" and actually means "tried by the people" (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2361910), from "LAOS" (people) + "DIKE", (here it has the meaning of "trial") (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2326944).
First attested use of the name is in Homer's Iliad, bearers of the name were the daughter of AGAMEMNON and the daughter of PRIAMOS (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3D%235717), a Nymph, and a hyperborean priestess of Apollon. So the name was in use since at least 1200 BCE, which makes the noun a lot older, and the name 900 years older than its usage from the ladies of the house of the Seleucidae.
The creation of the noun and the name is obviously obscure… INMH, we have to dig into the first elements of democracy in early Greek communities.
PS: LGPN (http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/) covers 38 women with the name "LAODIKE" in ancient times.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
First attested use of the name is in Homer's Iliad, bearers of the name were the daughter of AGAMEMNON and the daughter of PRIAMOS (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3D%235717), a Nymph, and a hyperborean priestess of Apollon. So the name was in use since at least 1200 BCE, which makes the noun a lot older, and the name 900 years older than its usage from the ladies of the house of the Seleucidae.
The creation of the noun and the name is obviously obscure… INMH, we have to dig into the first elements of democracy in early Greek communities.
PS: LGPN (http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/) covers 38 women with the name "LAODIKE" in ancient times.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
This message was edited 3/11/2006, 11:53 AM
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Replies
I thank you Kassios for those good links. You are right that "LAODIKOS" means "tried by the people". I see no reason however why "LAODIKE" (Laodice) must mean LAODIKOS. As you point out, the meaning of the Ancient Greek name "LAODIKE" is obviously obscure.
Have you noticed that EURYDICE (Eurydike) is a combination of ευρυς (eurys) "wide" and δικη (dike) "justice"? http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=eurydice
I am aware that Ancient Greece came before the Seleucid dynasty. It's just not obvious to me that the name LAODIKE ever meant anything in ancient history. Isn't it possible that the modern explanation of LAODIKE meaning LAOS + DIKE is just a pun?
Have you noticed that EURYDICE (Eurydike) is a combination of ευρυς (eurys) "wide" and δικη (dike) "justice"? http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=eurydice
I am aware that Ancient Greece came before the Seleucid dynasty. It's just not obvious to me that the name LAODIKE ever meant anything in ancient history. Isn't it possible that the modern explanation of LAODIKE meaning LAOS + DIKE is just a pun?
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Hi Eugene
Sorry if I didn’t make it clear when I said: “The creation of the noun and the name is obviously obscure…” I didn’t mean that the meaning of "LAODIKE" is obscure but that the creation of the noun “LAODIKOS” and the name “LAODIKE” is obscure, since we don’t have historical evidence on how and why (under what social, cultural etc. needs) the creation of such words took place.
However, what we know is our knowledge about the formation of the Ancient Greek names, so we have to first rely on that and then do etymological research to tell the meaning of “LAODIKE”. Therefore, it is impossible that the explanation of LAODIKE meaning LAOS + DIKE is a pun, and it certainly cannot be modern; simply by putting all the data together, it leads us to the conclusion that “LAODIKE” and “LAODIKOS” have the same meaning, since they are both combinations of the words LAOS + DIKE.
You can refer to http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/names/formation.html for a brief description on the formation of the Ancient Greek names.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
Sorry if I didn’t make it clear when I said: “The creation of the noun and the name is obviously obscure…” I didn’t mean that the meaning of "LAODIKE" is obscure but that the creation of the noun “LAODIKOS” and the name “LAODIKE” is obscure, since we don’t have historical evidence on how and why (under what social, cultural etc. needs) the creation of such words took place.
However, what we know is our knowledge about the formation of the Ancient Greek names, so we have to first rely on that and then do etymological research to tell the meaning of “LAODIKE”. Therefore, it is impossible that the explanation of LAODIKE meaning LAOS + DIKE is a pun, and it certainly cannot be modern; simply by putting all the data together, it leads us to the conclusion that “LAODIKE” and “LAODIKOS” have the same meaning, since they are both combinations of the words LAOS + DIKE.
You can refer to http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/names/formation.html for a brief description on the formation of the Ancient Greek names.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
1
Hi Kassios,
If http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/names/formation.html is a general rule to explain the meaning of Greek names, then I suppose you believe that Pergamos really means Per (beyond) gamos (marriage). :-)
http://www.everythingimportant.org/viewtopic.php?p=4503#4503
You didn't comment on why δικη (dike) being translated "justice" for EURYDICE (Eurydike) is admissible in http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=eurydice yet, by identical reasoning, why it is somehow inadmissible that "dike" means "justice" in LAO + DIKE. Is that page wrong or what?
If http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk/names/formation.html is a general rule to explain the meaning of Greek names, then I suppose you believe that Pergamos really means Per (beyond) gamos (marriage). :-)
http://www.everythingimportant.org/viewtopic.php?p=4503#4503
You didn't comment on why δικη (dike) being translated "justice" for EURYDICE (Eurydike) is admissible in http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=eurydice yet, by identical reasoning, why it is somehow inadmissible that "dike" means "justice" in LAO + DIKE. Is that page wrong or what?
This message was edited 3/12/2006, 4:58 AM
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Actually yes, the BtN entry for EURYDICE needs attention, since the translation of the word "DIKE" is not correct. The Greek word for justice is "DIKAIOSYNE", (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2326888) which derives from "DIKAIOS" (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2326887) which derives from “DIKE”.
PS: Lol, I liked your PERGAMOS etymology! :)
As a matter of fact, the word “PERGAMOS” means “citadel, acropolis” and it derives from the word “PYRGOS”, “tower”.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
PS: Lol, I liked your PERGAMOS etymology! :)
As a matter of fact, the word “PERGAMOS” means “citadel, acropolis” and it derives from the word “PYRGOS”, “tower”.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
This message was edited 3/12/2006, 7:38 AM
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Kassios,
If you are right, then many references require explanation. Please start by correcting this entry for Dice (Dike), the Greek goddess:
"DICE, the personification of justice, was, according to Hesiod, a daughter of Zeus and Themis, and the sister of Eunomia and Eirene. She was considered as one of the Horae; she watched the deeds of man and approached the throne of Zeus with lamentations whenever a judge violated justice. She was the enemy of all falsehood and the protectress of a wise administration of justice; and Hesychia, that is, tranquillity of mind, was her daughter. She is frequently called the attendant or councilor of Zeus. In the tragedians, Dice appears as a divinity who severely punishes all wrong, watches over the maintenance of justice, and pierces the hearts of the unjust with the sword made for her by Aesa. In this capacity she is closely connected with the Erinnyes, though her business is not only to punish injustice, but also to reward virtue. The idea of Dice as justice personified is most perfectly developed in the dramas of Sophocles and Euripides. She was represented on the chest of Cypselus as a handsome goddess, dragging Adicia (Injustice) with one hand, while in the other she held a staff with which she beat her."
http://ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/1008.html
Also, please revise the following statement so that it will be factually correct:
THE HORAE
The Horae are the goddesses of the seasons and the orderly procession of things in general. They are also the collective personification of justice. Hesiod, who saw them as givers of the law, justice and peace, gave them the names Eunomia (Discipline), Dice (Justice) and Eirene (Peace). At Athens two of the Horae, were called Thallo and Carpo, and to the Athenians, represented the budding and maturity of growing things. As a result, Thallo became the protectress of youth.
http://www.amystical1.com/greekgodsgoddesses.htm
If you are right, then many references require explanation. Please start by correcting this entry for Dice (Dike), the Greek goddess:
"DICE, the personification of justice, was, according to Hesiod, a daughter of Zeus and Themis, and the sister of Eunomia and Eirene. She was considered as one of the Horae; she watched the deeds of man and approached the throne of Zeus with lamentations whenever a judge violated justice. She was the enemy of all falsehood and the protectress of a wise administration of justice; and Hesychia, that is, tranquillity of mind, was her daughter. She is frequently called the attendant or councilor of Zeus. In the tragedians, Dice appears as a divinity who severely punishes all wrong, watches over the maintenance of justice, and pierces the hearts of the unjust with the sword made for her by Aesa. In this capacity she is closely connected with the Erinnyes, though her business is not only to punish injustice, but also to reward virtue. The idea of Dice as justice personified is most perfectly developed in the dramas of Sophocles and Euripides. She was represented on the chest of Cypselus as a handsome goddess, dragging Adicia (Injustice) with one hand, while in the other she held a staff with which she beat her."
http://ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/1008.html
Also, please revise the following statement so that it will be factually correct:
THE HORAE
The Horae are the goddesses of the seasons and the orderly procession of things in general. They are also the collective personification of justice. Hesiod, who saw them as givers of the law, justice and peace, gave them the names Eunomia (Discipline), Dice (Justice) and Eirene (Peace). At Athens two of the Horae, were called Thallo and Carpo, and to the Athenians, represented the budding and maturity of growing things. As a result, Thallo became the protectress of youth.
http://www.amystical1.com/greekgodsgoddesses.htm
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Eugene,
All your observations are right; but keep in mind that we are talking about translation from Ancient Greek language to English here. So, in response to your questions, I’ll just have to repeat what I said in my previous post:
The translation of Ancient Greek "DIKE" as "justice" in English is false, since there is the perfect word for "justice" in Ancient Greek and that is "DIKAIOSYNE". The word "DIKE" must be translated in English as "judgement", which is correct; "judgement" does not have the same meaning as "justice".
However I can justify "DIKE" as "justice" in English, only if the translators tried to include all the different meanings of the Ancient Greek word "DIKE" in one word understandable by most people in our days; yet, still it would not be correct.
Pavlos has a point here: "It is fascinating to note that the Hellenic notion of justice -- to bring to light-- is semantically different from the Latin/Christian notion of justice".
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
1
Kassios,
Let's forget (for the moment) the task of translating the meaning of LAODIKE into a short, cryptic phrase. Can we now negotiate and reach an agreement for an excellent English translation of LAODIKE in terms of a single, comprehensive and authoritative statement?
Personally, I could easily accept translating LAODIKE literally as "people judgment" (which I think of as "human judgment") if we could agree on how to qualify that further. Translating LAODIKE as the "judgment of the people" is clearly misleading. The ambiguity of that translation would suggest the possibility that people are being judged. I see no chance of that being a possible meaning. Hopefully you agree with my basic understanding that LAODIKE means that people are expressing a human judgment. How would you like to qualify this translation further?
I propose this sentence:
LAODIKE (literally, "people judgment") means "the way of the people", specifically, the way that people judge—by traditions, according to the most popular view of order and what the majority think is right.
Let's forget (for the moment) the task of translating the meaning of LAODIKE into a short, cryptic phrase. Can we now negotiate and reach an agreement for an excellent English translation of LAODIKE in terms of a single, comprehensive and authoritative statement?
Personally, I could easily accept translating LAODIKE literally as "people judgment" (which I think of as "human judgment") if we could agree on how to qualify that further. Translating LAODIKE as the "judgment of the people" is clearly misleading. The ambiguity of that translation would suggest the possibility that people are being judged. I see no chance of that being a possible meaning. Hopefully you agree with my basic understanding that LAODIKE means that people are expressing a human judgment. How would you like to qualify this translation further?
I propose this sentence:
LAODIKE (literally, "people judgment") means "the way of the people", specifically, the way that people judge—by traditions, according to the most popular view of order and what the majority think is right.
1
Eugene,
You 've made a very good observation here, I agree with you and I like your chosen definition.
Personally I can't think of anything further to add to it.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
You 've made a very good observation here, I agree with you and I like your chosen definition.
Personally I can't think of anything further to add to it.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription is found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
1
The origin of DIKE itself
It might be revealing t o examine the origin of teh word "dike" itself. It is derived from the word äåßêíõìé (deiknumi) which means "to bring to light, display, exhibit".
It is fascinating to note that the Hellenic notion of justice -- to bring to light is semantically different from the Latin/Christian notion of justice (
It might be revealing t o examine the origin of teh word "dike" itself. It is derived from the word äåßêíõìé (deiknumi) which means "to bring to light, display, exhibit".
It is fascinating to note that the Hellenic notion of justice -- to bring to light is semantically different from the Latin/Christian notion of justice (
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My last sentence was somehoe cut off...
...The Latin/Christian notion of justice is derived from "justus" meaning "upright".
...The Latin/Christian notion of justice is derived from "justus" meaning "upright".
1