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in reply to a message by Kassios
Ῥόδος (Rhodos) appears in the Catalogue of Ships, but it's clearly referring to the island of Rhodes (Iliad 2.654, 655, 667).
"Rheei odmē" smacks of an ancient etymology; these tend to be more ingenious than historically accurate.
"Rheei odmē" smacks of an ancient etymology; these tend to be more ingenious than historically accurate.
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I am sorry, what do you actually mean? Also what is the 'Catalogue of Ships'?
*** "The cunning justifies, the silly insists, the clever admits." ***
ARISTARCHOS
*** "The cunning justifies, the silly insists, the clever admits." ***
ARISTARCHOS
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The Catalogue of Ships is the section in the 2nd book of the Iliad where we get the whole list of the Achaean forces, with the names of the leaders and how many ships each one controls.
What I mean about the etymology is that I really doubt it--it looks right on the surface, but it's likely to have been invented out of recognizable words to explain a word that wasn't clear to the people studying it. The ancient commentators did this frequently, and you have to admire their efforts, but linguistically they don't work. Rhodos, for instance, is brodos in the Aeolic dialect--something that's hard to justify if it comes from rheei odme!
What I mean about the etymology is that I really doubt it--it looks right on the surface, but it's likely to have been invented out of recognizable words to explain a word that wasn't clear to the people studying it. The ancient commentators did this frequently, and you have to admire their efforts, but linguistically they don't work. Rhodos, for instance, is brodos in the Aeolic dialect--something that's hard to justify if it comes from rheei odme!
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Etymology of rose / rhodon
All etymological dictionaries I have access to, say that the Greeks imported their word for "rose" from Persia or some other place in the Middle East. I don't know, how reliable this source is, but a quick check seems to confirm its reliability:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=r&p=18
So I would agree with Cass in this respect.
All etymological dictionaries I have access to, say that the Greeks imported their word for "rose" from Persia or some other place in the Middle East. I don't know, how reliable this source is, but a quick check seems to confirm its reliability:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=r&p=18
So I would agree with Cass in this respect.
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Dear Cass, Andy and friends,
I am familiar with the "official" etymology (from old Persian "vrda") of the word RHODON, although most of the dictionaries do state that its
"… of uncertain origin, perhaps from old Persian 'vrda'…".
However, if we follow some basic principles of etymology when comparing two words, we’ll come to the following facts:
1. Observing history:
Latest research proves that the oldest historical recording of the word ‘rose’ is the Mycenaean word FRODON and the derivatives of it -FRODE, FRODOEN, FRODIOS, etc. - of the Linear B scripts (1500-1200 BCE) and not the Old Persian "vrda" (550-350 BCE).
2. Observing geography:
The Aeolian dialect has common characteristics with the Mycenaean dialect, from which obviously the word FRODON is borrowed. The Aeolians migrated from mainland Greece (western Macedonia and Thessaly) to the islands of NE Aegean sea (Lesbos, Tenedos etc.) and the north coast of Minor Asia around the 10th cent. BCE, when the first elements of the Aeolians (and their dialect) were found there.
3. Observing phonetics:
The Greek letter F -"digamma"- which has the sound of a soft "v" in the Aeolian dialect, would make the word sound "VRODON".
4. Observing cognation:
There are more cognate forms of the word RHODON in the Greek language than in all other languages together.
Therefore, there is not enough to justify that the word FRODON derives from "vrda", but there is enough to justify that, most possible, it’s the opposite:
FRODON-VRODON > Old Persian "vrda", Armenian "vard", etc.
*** "The cunning justifies, the silly insists, the clever admits." ***
ARISTARCHOS
I am familiar with the "official" etymology (from old Persian "vrda") of the word RHODON, although most of the dictionaries do state that its
"… of uncertain origin, perhaps from old Persian 'vrda'…".
However, if we follow some basic principles of etymology when comparing two words, we’ll come to the following facts:
1. Observing history:
Latest research proves that the oldest historical recording of the word ‘rose’ is the Mycenaean word FRODON and the derivatives of it -FRODE, FRODOEN, FRODIOS, etc. - of the Linear B scripts (1500-1200 BCE) and not the Old Persian "vrda" (550-350 BCE).
2. Observing geography:
The Aeolian dialect has common characteristics with the Mycenaean dialect, from which obviously the word FRODON is borrowed. The Aeolians migrated from mainland Greece (western Macedonia and Thessaly) to the islands of NE Aegean sea (Lesbos, Tenedos etc.) and the north coast of Minor Asia around the 10th cent. BCE, when the first elements of the Aeolians (and their dialect) were found there.
3. Observing phonetics:
The Greek letter F -"digamma"- which has the sound of a soft "v" in the Aeolian dialect, would make the word sound "VRODON".
4. Observing cognation:
There are more cognate forms of the word RHODON in the Greek language than in all other languages together.
Therefore, there is not enough to justify that the word FRODON derives from "vrda", but there is enough to justify that, most possible, it’s the opposite:
FRODON-VRODON > Old Persian "vrda", Armenian "vard", etc.
*** "The cunning justifies, the silly insists, the clever admits." ***
ARISTARCHOS
This message was edited 2/2/2006, 8:55 AM
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Thank you, Cassios, for your detailed answer. Now I don't have the means to check the information you give; some of it sounds convincing (especially your first observation, if there is any proof for it), some of it makes me frown (No 4, which seems to give little evidence). Anyway, I would like you to answer one or two more questions:
1. Do you have any reliable sources that agree with your theory? Well-accepted standard works on etymology? Maybe books that don't have a 9 at the beginning of their ISBN number? And if you don't:
2. How come, obviously everybody else seems to be wrong, and only you are right? To you have a theory, as to why the truth has been suppressed? Conspiracy?
But maybe I am totally wrong and I'm just using the wrong books.
1. Do you have any reliable sources that agree with your theory? Well-accepted standard works on etymology? Maybe books that don't have a 9 at the beginning of their ISBN number? And if you don't:
2. How come, obviously everybody else seems to be wrong, and only you are right? To you have a theory, as to why the truth has been suppressed? Conspiracy?
But maybe I am totally wrong and I'm just using the wrong books.
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Dear Andy,
Naturally most of my books are in Greek, since that’s my mother tongue and I really don’t understand the derision with your comment: “Maybe books that don't have a 9 at the beginning of their ISBN number?” by which of course you mean books in Greek, or from Greece. Unfortunately for you, it only shows your prejudice about books from Greece and Greek writers, and, if there are more like you out there, I guess I will really have to start believing in conspiracy theories…!
Now, about my first observation, you can refer to:
“Documents in Mycenaean Greek, Three Hundred Selected Tablets From Knossos, Pylos and Mycenae, With Commentary and Vocabularies”. Michael Ventris and John Chadwick, Cambridge University Press, 1956.
“Corpus of Mycenaean Inscriptions of Knossos”, Volumes 1-4. John Chadwick et al, Cambridge University Press.
I am also quite sure that the latest editions of Liddel and Scott Lexicon do cover words of the Mycenaean vocabulary.
About my fourth observation: Cognation is a very basic principle in etymology. I am really sorry -and surprised- if you are not familiar with that.
Only one book agrees with my explanation about RHODON etymology, only I don’t see why I should mention it to you, since its ISBN number begins with 9…
The only theory I have “as to why the truth has been suppressed?” is that the J.B. Hofmann’s “Etymologisches Worterbuch Des Griechischen” of which most of the other etymology books of Greek are based on, has not been updated since 1950, whereas the Linear B writing was deciphered by M. Ventris and J. Chadwick in 1953.
To conclude: I have full respect for other peoples opinions and findings when they are based on concrete evidence; however since in this case there is not enough to justify that the word RHODON derives from the Old Persian “vrda”, but using basic etymology research justifys the opposite, I have every right to stick to my theory, unless someone can PROVE me wrong. Why not you if you can; I would be very happy, because:
“When two people have a dispute, the loser is actually the winner because he learns something new.”
SOCRATES
Naturally most of my books are in Greek, since that’s my mother tongue and I really don’t understand the derision with your comment: “Maybe books that don't have a 9 at the beginning of their ISBN number?” by which of course you mean books in Greek, or from Greece. Unfortunately for you, it only shows your prejudice about books from Greece and Greek writers, and, if there are more like you out there, I guess I will really have to start believing in conspiracy theories…!
Now, about my first observation, you can refer to:
“Documents in Mycenaean Greek, Three Hundred Selected Tablets From Knossos, Pylos and Mycenae, With Commentary and Vocabularies”. Michael Ventris and John Chadwick, Cambridge University Press, 1956.
“Corpus of Mycenaean Inscriptions of Knossos”, Volumes 1-4. John Chadwick et al, Cambridge University Press.
I am also quite sure that the latest editions of Liddel and Scott Lexicon do cover words of the Mycenaean vocabulary.
About my fourth observation: Cognation is a very basic principle in etymology. I am really sorry -and surprised- if you are not familiar with that.
Only one book agrees with my explanation about RHODON etymology, only I don’t see why I should mention it to you, since its ISBN number begins with 9…
The only theory I have “as to why the truth has been suppressed?” is that the J.B. Hofmann’s “Etymologisches Worterbuch Des Griechischen” of which most of the other etymology books of Greek are based on, has not been updated since 1950, whereas the Linear B writing was deciphered by M. Ventris and J. Chadwick in 1953.
To conclude: I have full respect for other peoples opinions and findings when they are based on concrete evidence; however since in this case there is not enough to justify that the word RHODON derives from the Old Persian “vrda”, but using basic etymology research justifys the opposite, I have every right to stick to my theory, unless someone can PROVE me wrong. Why not you if you can; I would be very happy, because:
“When two people have a dispute, the loser is actually the winner because he learns something new.”
SOCRATES
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I really must apologise for the "9". I didn't know Greece had the 9 at the beginning. I thought, the 9 was left for countries like Tobago or Samoa. Sorry about that!
I am always open to new theories, and the evidence you list is impressive indeed. I've seen it before that scholars keep copying information from one book to another without rechecking it. So what you say about Greek etymology may be the case. Unfortunately I don't have one book on this, and although I can read and understand ancient Greek, I would probably lost in a Greek-Greek dictionary of the kind.
So I'd be glad to be the "winner" in Socrates' view.
Andy
I am always open to new theories, and the evidence you list is impressive indeed. I've seen it before that scholars keep copying information from one book to another without rechecking it. So what you say about Greek etymology may be the case. Unfortunately I don't have one book on this, and although I can read and understand ancient Greek, I would probably lost in a Greek-Greek dictionary of the kind.
So I'd be glad to be the "winner" in Socrates' view.
Andy
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I think this question has been answered. Check my next mail, please.
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Ah, so!
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Narnia and Wonderland
Somebody had quoted a book with a 9 in the beginning and it sounded really interesting, so I asked a librarian to search for it, but she wasn't able to find it in any catalogue worldwide. That's why I was suspicious of 9s. Of course I should have said "Narnia and Wonderland" instead of "Tobago and Samoa". I didn't mean to offend anybody.
Somebody had quoted a book with a 9 in the beginning and it sounded really interesting, so I asked a librarian to search for it, but she wasn't able to find it in any catalogue worldwide. That's why I was suspicious of 9s. Of course I should have said "Narnia and Wonderland" instead of "Tobago and Samoa". I didn't mean to offend anybody.
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...and risk offending various species if talking animals?
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Dear Andy,
Apology is accepted, although I have to say I still detect some elements of derision against editions from Tobago and Samoa this time...
Anyway, we all know how important it is to not just always rely on what we read or are told but, if we can, we should search around it. As the ancient Greeks said: "Be calm and remember to disbelieve."
Always a pleasure to exchange dialogue with people who do ask questions, like yourself! :)
“When two people have a dispute, the loser is actually the winner because he learns something new.”
SOCRATES
Apology is accepted, although I have to say I still detect some elements of derision against editions from Tobago and Samoa this time...
Anyway, we all know how important it is to not just always rely on what we read or are told but, if we can, we should search around it. As the ancient Greeks said: "Be calm and remember to disbelieve."
Always a pleasure to exchange dialogue with people who do ask questions, like yourself! :)
“When two people have a dispute, the loser is actually the winner because he learns something new.”
SOCRATES
1
No, I wouldn't doubt the reliabiliy of books from Tobago or Samoa right away, the only trouble is: you can't get hold of these books in a German library. That's all.
But what I'll do in the case of "rhodon": There is a well-known scholar in Germany by the name of ROSA Kohlheim. Together with her husband she has written a number of very good books on names. I've exchanged letters with her before and maybe she would be interested in the rose discussion for personal reasons. I'll try anyway.
Andy ;—)
But what I'll do in the case of "rhodon": There is a well-known scholar in Germany by the name of ROSA Kohlheim. Together with her husband she has written a number of very good books on names. I've exchanged letters with her before and maybe she would be interested in the rose discussion for personal reasons. I'll try anyway.
Andy ;—)
1
RHODON (or RHODES) in the Aeolic dialect is FRODON, not BRODON (or BRODOS). That’s because the letter F of the Aeolic dialect was replaced by the letter H in the Attic dialect. The Greek letter F, "digamma", has that name because its shape resembles two "gammas", Ã. The letter F was used since the Mycenaean era in front of words starting with R- such as FRODON-RODON, FRADIOS-RADIOS, etc., or words starting with vowels, like FOINOS-OINOS, FERGON-ERGON etc. or it was used in the middle of words.
The accent of "digamma" F was either a soft "v" or "f" sound, a soft "y" sound, or a soft "h" sound, as in the sound of the letter H of the English language.
The letter "F" was abolished from the Greek alphabet by the archon EYKLEIDES in 403 BCE. Since then, the "h" sound of it, was represented with the letter H in the Attic dialect until the 2nd century CE. It was finally replaced by the "spiritus aspect" symbol,in Greek "daseia", which was used since then to represent the sound of "h" in front of words in the koine, Byzantine, medieval and "katharevousa" Greek.
So we have FRODON-RHODON, from RHOE (flow) and ODME (scent), or RHEEI (it flows) and ODME. So indeed the name Rhode means "flowing scent" or "a flow of scent".
(Another spelling for the word ODME (scent) is OSME, of which perhaps the Latin word "Rosa", -"RHEEI OSME"-, came from).
*** "The cunning justifies, the silly insists, the clever admits." ***
ARISTARCHOS
1
RHODON (or RHODES) in the Aeolic dialect is FRODON, not BRODON (or BRODOS). That’s because the letter F of the Aeolic dialect was replaced by the letter H in the Attic dialect. The Greek letter F, "digamma", has that name because its shape resembles two "gammas", Ã. The letter F was used since the Mycenaean era in front of words starting with R- such as FRODON-RODON, FRADIOS-RADIOS, etc., or words starting with vowels, like FOINOS-OINOS, FERGON-ERGON etc. or it was used in the middle of words.
The accent of "digamma" F was either a soft "v" or "f" sound, a soft "y" sound, or a soft "h" sound, as in the sound of the letter H of the English language.
The letter "F" was abolished from the Greek alphabet by the archon EYKLEIDES in 403 BCE. Since then, the "h" sound of it, was represented with the letter H in the Attic dialect until the 2nd century CE. It was finally replaced by the "spiritus aspect" symbol,in Greek "daseia", which was used since then to represent the sound of "h" in front of words in the koine, Byzantine, medieval and "katharevousa" Greek.
So we have FRODON-RHODON, from RHOE (flow) and ODME (scent), or RHEEI (it flows) and ODME. So indeed the name Rhode means "flowing scent" or "a flow of scent".
(Another spelling for the word ODME (scent) is OSME, of which perhaps the Latin word "Rosa", -"RHEEI OSME"-, came from).
*** "The cunning justifies, the silly insists, the clever admits." ***
ARISTARCHOS
1