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ArchivesMr Susan
Hi, guys. I've just looked up Susan in the popularity lists, and lo! in the 1940s, 50s and 60s there were enough boys named Su(san) to make the charts. Too early to have been named by fans of the song ...
In those decades, Susan was remarkably popular for girls. And mistakes do creep in. But I wonder if any of you - probably Cleveland Kent Evans! - has ever met a Mr Susan, and if so, what explanation the poor bloke gave. They must explain, mustn't they? Several times a day until they die. Good grief.
Once I knew a woman, Afrikaans-speaking, whose given names were Andries Gerhardus Philippus, or as close to Andrew Gerard Philip as you can get. It seems that her grandfather had insisted loud and long that the next grandchild had to be named after him ... and she was. But all of those names could be feminised so easily. She went by Annie, if I recall.
I doubt if that is the explanation for the Mr Susans, though, because there just wouldn't have suddenly been that number of ancestral Susans with raving egos. I'm just off to check some other common female names to see if there's a pattern ...
If anyone knows, it'll be this list.
All the best
In those decades, Susan was remarkably popular for girls. And mistakes do creep in. But I wonder if any of you - probably Cleveland Kent Evans! - has ever met a Mr Susan, and if so, what explanation the poor bloke gave. They must explain, mustn't they? Several times a day until they die. Good grief.
Once I knew a woman, Afrikaans-speaking, whose given names were Andries Gerhardus Philippus, or as close to Andrew Gerard Philip as you can get. It seems that her grandfather had insisted loud and long that the next grandchild had to be named after him ... and she was. But all of those names could be feminised so easily. She went by Annie, if I recall.
I doubt if that is the explanation for the Mr Susans, though, because there just wouldn't have suddenly been that number of ancestral Susans with raving egos. I'm just off to check some other common female names to see if there's a pattern ...
If anyone knows, it'll be this list.
All the best
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Replies
These are a result of errors in the SSA for the most part (is that where you're looking?). You also have to remember that "remarkably popular" names back then are different. Look on the SSA website now and see how much harder it is to make it onto the top 1000 names than say in 1880 when only 4 or 5 mistakes needed to be made to get a name on there. Easy when there's so many kids named Mary.
"To know the laws is not to memorize their letter but to grasp their full force and meaning." -Marcus Tullius Cicero
--See my profile for my adopted PP's--
"To know the laws is not to memorize their letter but to grasp their full force and meaning." -Marcus Tullius Cicero
--See my profile for my adopted PP's--
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How do you feel about "traditionally" boy names being given to girls?
It's just a name.
It's just a name.
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Its because of some mean vindictive dad...
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnycash/aboynamedsue.html
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnycash/aboynamedsue.html
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I assume you are looking at the SSA lists as your "charts."
The quality of the data here deteriorates the farther back in time you go. It is quite obvious from the names you have found that there simply were a lot of mistakes made in the gender code when the original data for Social Security was entered into the SSA computer system. There is no way that there were as many boys given the popular girls' names like Susan, Mary, Elizabeth, Deborah, etc. as the SSA data says.
To look at one early year at random: the SSA top 1000 list for 1890 has 9 of the top 10 names for girls (Mary, Anna, Elizabeth, Margaret, Emma, Florence, Ethel, Minnie, and Bertha) are also on the boys' list; and the top 11 boys' names (John, William, James, George, Charles, Frank, Joseph, Robert, Henry, Harry, and Edward)also appear on the girls' list. Though I have run across very rare examples of girls named George, Frank, James, and Harry -- and Florence was used in earlier centuries as a male name in Ireland --
it is highly unlikely that the above pattern reflects reality, but much more likely that it's the result of errors made in typing the gender code in the original SSA data.
The quality of the data here deteriorates the farther back in time you go. It is quite obvious from the names you have found that there simply were a lot of mistakes made in the gender code when the original data for Social Security was entered into the SSA computer system. There is no way that there were as many boys given the popular girls' names like Susan, Mary, Elizabeth, Deborah, etc. as the SSA data says.
To look at one early year at random: the SSA top 1000 list for 1890 has 9 of the top 10 names for girls (Mary, Anna, Elizabeth, Margaret, Emma, Florence, Ethel, Minnie, and Bertha) are also on the boys' list; and the top 11 boys' names (John, William, James, George, Charles, Frank, Joseph, Robert, Henry, Harry, and Edward)also appear on the girls' list. Though I have run across very rare examples of girls named George, Frank, James, and Harry -- and Florence was used in earlier centuries as a male name in Ireland --
it is highly unlikely that the above pattern reflects reality, but much more likely that it's the result of errors made in typing the gender code in the original SSA data.
This message was edited 1/18/2006, 9:48 AM
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I certainly see what you mean ... but what I don't understand is why parents in the 1980s (not the 1890s!) suddenly started making a statistically significant number of errors with their Elizabeth, Melissa and Sarah daughters. Had the forms changed and become confusing? Otherwise surely the 70s parents would have been doing the same kind of thing, and the 90s ones?
Anyway, what you didn't say is probably as important as what you did: you haven't had direct personal experience of any boy named Lizzie, right? (And if right, then PHEW!)
Anyway, what you didn't say is probably as important as what you did: you haven't had direct personal experience of any boy named Lizzie, right? (And if right, then PHEW!)
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It wouldn't be the parents making the errors, it would be the clerks at the Social Security administration who put the data into the computer. Entering the sex code into the computer probably originally involved typing in either a "1" or a "2", and it would have been very easy for a mistake to have been made. I have no idea why there would be more errors in the 1980s than in the 1970s or 1990s, but the accuracy in something like this might depend partly on how well trained the individuals involved were. It's quite possible that the 1980s data were actually entered first, with the 1970s data only being entered in later along with the 1990s while the system was becoming completely computerized.
I certainly haven't had any direct personal experience of a boy named Lizzie; but then I hardly know every person in the USA! :)
I certainly haven't had any direct personal experience of a boy named Lizzie; but then I hardly know every person in the USA! :)
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found this on Ancestry.com no idea of how correct it is but if it is it may answer some of your query
What does the Susan name mean?
Last Name: Susan
1) English and Dutch: from the female personal name Susanna, Susanne (Middle English), Susanna (Dutch), from Hebrew Shushannah ‘lily’, ‘lily of the valley’.
2)Southern French: from Occitan susan ‘above’, ‘higher’, hence a topographic name for someone living at the top end of a village or on the side of a valley.
3)Jewish (Sephardic): from the male personal name Susan, a derivative of Arabic susan ‘lily’.
cant find any other referrance to it being a male Jewish name but have seen it as a surname before now
What does the Susan name mean?
Last Name: Susan
1) English and Dutch: from the female personal name Susanna, Susanne (Middle English), Susanna (Dutch), from Hebrew Shushannah ‘lily’, ‘lily of the valley’.
2)Southern French: from Occitan susan ‘above’, ‘higher’, hence a topographic name for someone living at the top end of a village or on the side of a valley.
3)Jewish (Sephardic): from the male personal name Susan, a derivative of Arabic susan ‘lily’.
cant find any other referrance to it being a male Jewish name but have seen it as a surname before now
This message was edited 1/18/2006, 11:35 AM
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Aaarrgghh - there's more ...
Mary is listed for boys from 1900 to 1969.
Shirley from 1900 to 1959 (OK, it's a surname), peaking in the 30s just like Shirley for girls
Anna just from 1900 to 1909, and not Ann at all
Not Wendy either
Not Sally
Barbara in the 30s, 40s and 50s
Sarah, weirdly, in the 80s
Elizabeth from 1900-09; again in the 30s; and yet again in the 80s
Deborah in the 50s, and the frillier Melissa in the 70s and 80s.
So they seem to often but not always follow the female popularities. And surely there must be too many of them for them all to be misprints?
And what was going on in the 80s? Elizabeth, Melissa and Sarah, oh my!
Anneza, wearing her baffled hat
Mary is listed for boys from 1900 to 1969.
Shirley from 1900 to 1959 (OK, it's a surname), peaking in the 30s just like Shirley for girls
Anna just from 1900 to 1909, and not Ann at all
Not Wendy either
Not Sally
Barbara in the 30s, 40s and 50s
Sarah, weirdly, in the 80s
Elizabeth from 1900-09; again in the 30s; and yet again in the 80s
Deborah in the 50s, and the frillier Melissa in the 70s and 80s.
So they seem to often but not always follow the female popularities. And surely there must be too many of them for them all to be misprints?
And what was going on in the 80s? Elizabeth, Melissa and Sarah, oh my!
Anneza, wearing her baffled hat
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Shirley has in the past been a unisex name but I think the arrival of Shirley Temple put it firmly onto the girls list, there was once a wrestler called Big Daddy who's real name was Shirley Crabtree if my memory serves me
no idea about the others
no idea about the others
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Not exactly . . .
Shirley is unisex, no doubt about that, but the name was already highly popular and trendy for girls when Shirley Temple was named. She was given a popular name but her personal popularity kept the name popular for longer.
♦ Chrisell ♦
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. - J.R.R. Tolkien.
Shirley is unisex, no doubt about that, but the name was already highly popular and trendy for girls when Shirley Temple was named. She was given a popular name but her personal popularity kept the name popular for longer.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. - J.R.R. Tolkien.
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Yes but what I was trying to say and failing obviously :) is that her fame helped to edge it out of the unisex list and onto the girls only list, I doubt many parents looking for a name for their son now a days would even realise Shirley was once a boys name too
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