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ArchivesConfused about Carl/Karl
According to BtN Carl is a German form of Charles and both of them are as far as I understood from the latin Carolus meaning man.
But when I search for Carl I found something interesting in Wikipedia. Apparently there is also a Scandinavian Carl with the meaning freeman (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl under Other: Carl (also churl, ceorl, karl), a freeman peasant in the Scandinavian caste system; also the origin of the name
How are the two related? The meanings are very similar but where does the "free" - part come from. I've always been told that Carl means free man but did not get it confirmed by the database. Is this meaning limited to Scandinavia with the history of Carl meaning a freeman peasant?
Thank you!
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Scully: What I find fantastic is any notion that there are answers beyond the realm of science. The answers are there. You just have to know where to look.
Mulder: That's why they put the "I" in "F.B.I." .
But when I search for Carl I found something interesting in Wikipedia. Apparently there is also a Scandinavian Carl with the meaning freeman (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl under Other: Carl (also churl, ceorl, karl), a freeman peasant in the Scandinavian caste system; also the origin of the name
How are the two related? The meanings are very similar but where does the "free" - part come from. I've always been told that Carl means free man but did not get it confirmed by the database. Is this meaning limited to Scandinavia with the history of Carl meaning a freeman peasant?
Thank you!
_______________________________________________________________
Scully: What I find fantastic is any notion that there are answers beyond the realm of science. The answers are there. You just have to know where to look.
Mulder: That's why they put the "I" in "F.B.I." .
This message was edited 6/7/2008, 2:00 PM
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Replies
Carolus is a Latinization of the Germanic Karl, from karl, "man", but in the sense of "free man" opposed to "slave" (because slaves were not considered people but things).
It appears that karl as word lived in north Germanic (where Scandinavian languages come), but disappeared in the rest of Germanic languages.
It appears that karl as word lived in north Germanic (where Scandinavian languages come), but disappeared in the rest of Germanic languages.
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Lumia is perfectly right.
Nevertheless, it seems that in German onomastics, the "(free) man" derivation has been given up. What you will read nowadays in German scientific namebooks, is the HARI(bert etc.) > Hariolus > Carolus derivation.
Sources:
Wilfried Seibicke, Historisches Deutsches Vornamenbuch I-V, Berlin, New York 1996-2002
Henning Kaufmann, Ergänzungsband zu Ernst Förstemann, Altdeutsche Personennamen, München 1968
Rosa und Volker Kohlheim, Das große Vornamenlexikon, Mannheim 2003
Nevertheless, it seems that in German onomastics, the "(free) man" derivation has been given up. What you will read nowadays in German scientific namebooks, is the HARI(bert etc.) > Hariolus > Carolus derivation.
Sources:
Wilfried Seibicke, Historisches Deutsches Vornamenbuch I-V, Berlin, New York 1996-2002
Henning Kaufmann, Ergänzungsband zu Ernst Förstemann, Altdeutsche Personennamen, München 1968
Rosa und Volker Kohlheim, Das große Vornamenlexikon, Mannheim 2003
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That is very interesting...
and new to me because all my German (and rest of language) namebooks give the "(free) man" meaning. The derivation from harj would have more sense because it is an usual element in Germanic names (and karl as onomastical element is a hapax, because it only appears in the family names of Charles).
I searched at BtN archives and I found one of your posts with Seibicke's explanation and its translation to English. Could you do the same with Kohlheim's explanation? Or is it just the same that Seibicke's one?
and new to me because all my German (and rest of language) namebooks give the "(free) man" meaning. The derivation from harj would have more sense because it is an usual element in Germanic names (and karl as onomastical element is a hapax, because it only appears in the family names of Charles).
I searched at BtN archives and I found one of your posts with Seibicke's explanation and its translation to English. Could you do the same with Kohlheim's explanation? Or is it just the same that Seibicke's one?
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“Old German male forename, the origin of which is debated: Rather than from Old High German “kar(a)l”, man, husband, the name should be derived from a pet form of a name formed with OHG “heri”, army,” to which the Romanesque pet ending “-olus” was added within the area, where Westfrankish and Romance speakers mixed. Also, the initial K can easily be explained: the Germanic H was represented by a C. Another argument for this derivation is the fac, that during the early Middle Ages the name alsost exclusively used among the members of the Merowing-Karoling House. It wasn’t until the fame of Charlesmagne and the circle of legends around him spread, that the name came (back) to Medieval Germany . (…)”
Both Kohlheim and Seibicke refer to H.Kaufmann. So if you are interested in what he writes, let me know. But it will take me a while to translate his stuff, it's highly scientific.
Both Kohlheim and Seibicke refer to H.Kaufmann. So if you are interested in what he writes, let me know. But it will take me a while to translate his stuff, it's highly scientific.
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Thank you very much
The information of Kohlheim and Seibicke is enough to me because it is very clear and parallel to other Germanic names in Romance languages coming from Germanic pet names.
Thank you again.
The information of Kohlheim and Seibicke is enough to me because it is very clear and parallel to other Germanic names in Romance languages coming from Germanic pet names.
Thank you again.
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So...
If I understod it correctly Carl/Karl does not mean "free man" but is actually a name derived from a word meaning army. This would mean that the Scandinavian word karl meaning freeman peasant does not really have anything to do with the actual meaning of the name. Or is it possible that there are two different Carl/Karl (but with the same origin); one that derives directly from "heri" and one that was used in Scandinavia to designate a free man? I'm from Sweden and the noun karl is still used here (with the meaning man) and I wonder if one can really dismiss the "free man" meaning completely.
Thank you for all the information. It's very interesting.
If I understod it correctly Carl/Karl does not mean "free man" but is actually a name derived from a word meaning army. This would mean that the Scandinavian word karl meaning freeman peasant does not really have anything to do with the actual meaning of the name. Or is it possible that there are two different Carl/Karl (but with the same origin); one that derives directly from "heri" and one that was used in Scandinavia to designate a free man? I'm from Sweden and the noun karl is still used here (with the meaning man) and I wonder if one can really dismiss the "free man" meaning completely.
Thank you for all the information. It's very interesting.
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Yes, according to the sources I mentioned, the name Karl/Carl most likely has nothing to do with the Swedish "karl" or the German "Kerl." The man/husband derivation is still around, you will find it in many name books. But of course a lot of them just collect information from other name books, so false information can easily spread.
Of course, there may be different derivations developing independently (as I have always fancied to assume for the name Alfred, Al-fred or Alf-red, but never have been able to find any evidence for). But I have never come across a good story explaining the man-Karl line. On the other hand, Kaufmann gives a very plausible explanation of the hari derivation, backing it up with a number of comprehensible parallels.
Of course, there may be different derivations developing independently (as I have always fancied to assume for the name Alfred, Al-fred or Alf-red, but never have been able to find any evidence for). But I have never come across a good story explaining the man-Karl line. On the other hand, Kaufmann gives a very plausible explanation of the hari derivation, backing it up with a number of comprehensible parallels.
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I think that a soldier would by definition be a free man (not a serf or a slave), so it's not too big a jump. You wouldn't give weapons to your slaves, for your own safety, though you would bear arms yourself; and you'd be likely to refer to them as 'boy' or 'girl' even if they were older than you, their owner. Both ways, you'd be the man and they wouldn't. A state that a free peasant would aspire to ...
In Afrikaans, k^rel (there's an e under the little hat!) is pronounced rather like the American way of saying Carol; it means chap or bloke, a man you have an informal relationship with and feel friendly towards. Same word, changed meaning.
In Afrikaans, k^rel (there's an e under the little hat!) is pronounced rather like the American way of saying Carol; it means chap or bloke, a man you have an informal relationship with and feel friendly towards. Same word, changed meaning.
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I think, any connection in terms of content between "hari" and "charal" (Old Norse "karl") would be pure coincidence and cannot serve to reconcile the two theories.
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