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ArchivesRe: Muriel / Mariel and English dialects
in reply to a message by Lumia
I think the situation as to pronunciation as it exists today has been pretty well covered by your other answers.
But I wonder if you might have found information about this from a source that was thinking more in terms of long term history. Withycombe's The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names gives Meriel and Miriel as common alternative spellings of Muriel in medieval times, and says that the modern English surnames Merrell and Merrill sometimes derive from an ancestress named Muriel. This implies to me that back in medieval England the pronunciation of the first syllable of Muriel rhymed more with the modern word "fur" than it does with "pure". In other words, original Muriel didn't have that y-consonant sound in the first syllable that English speakers use today. Perhaps that somehow got into the name when it was revived in the 19th century.
And if back in medieval times some there were dialects where "ur" turned to "air", that would explain how the Merrill is related to Muriel.
Finally, in the dialect of most of the United States, Meriel and Mariel would today be pronounced about the same, just as most Americans west of New Jersey pronounce Mary, merry, and marry the same. So perhaps the idea that Mariel is ultimately a variation of Muriel comes from some American linking them through the medieval spelling Meriel? Just a thought. :)
But I wonder if you might have found information about this from a source that was thinking more in terms of long term history. Withycombe's The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names gives Meriel and Miriel as common alternative spellings of Muriel in medieval times, and says that the modern English surnames Merrell and Merrill sometimes derive from an ancestress named Muriel. This implies to me that back in medieval England the pronunciation of the first syllable of Muriel rhymed more with the modern word "fur" than it does with "pure". In other words, original Muriel didn't have that y-consonant sound in the first syllable that English speakers use today. Perhaps that somehow got into the name when it was revived in the 19th century.
And if back in medieval times some there were dialects where "ur" turned to "air", that would explain how the Merrill is related to Muriel.
Finally, in the dialect of most of the United States, Meriel and Mariel would today be pronounced about the same, just as most Americans west of New Jersey pronounce Mary, merry, and marry the same. So perhaps the idea that Mariel is ultimately a variation of Muriel comes from some American linking them through the medieval spelling Meriel? Just a thought. :)
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Replies
Yes, probably it is a historical situation
in confluence with the avoiding situation exposed by Anneza.
I checked in babynamesofireland.com (because there are audio records of the names) and in Irish Muirgheal is pronounced with a sound [u] (in a way very similar to Muriel in Catalan or in Spanish), so the adaptation of Muirgheal as Muriel through the Latin or even through the French/the Norman has a lot of sense. And I can see the evolution from [u] to a schwa and then to [e] or [a].
Since Muriel is an old fashioned name in English, I didn't hear it in real life (I think) and I don't know if nowadays in the English of Ireland Muriel is pronounced with [u] (like in Irish) or with [ju] (like in the general modern English pronunciation). Next Monday I will ask my English teacher about the pronunciation of Muriel in Ireland.
in confluence with the avoiding situation exposed by Anneza.
I checked in babynamesofireland.com (because there are audio records of the names) and in Irish Muirgheal is pronounced with a sound [u] (in a way very similar to Muriel in Catalan or in Spanish), so the adaptation of Muirgheal as Muriel through the Latin or even through the French/the Norman has a lot of sense. And I can see the evolution from [u] to a schwa and then to [e] or [a].
Since Muriel is an old fashioned name in English, I didn't hear it in real life (I think) and I don't know if nowadays in the English of Ireland Muriel is pronounced with [u] (like in Irish) or with [ju] (like in the general modern English pronunciation). Next Monday I will ask my English teacher about the pronunciation of Muriel in Ireland.
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Muriel in Ireland
Yesterday I asked my teacher about the pronunciation of Muriel in Ireland and it is just like in the rest of English speaking world, with a [ju] instead of a [u].
I don't know if it could be different in an area of strong Gaelic influence (like Donegal), but in Dublin area the name is just pronounced in the English general way.
Yesterday I asked my teacher about the pronunciation of Muriel in Ireland and it is just like in the rest of English speaking world, with a [ju] instead of a [u].
I don't know if it could be different in an area of strong Gaelic influence (like Donegal), but in Dublin area the name is just pronounced in the English general way.
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I think the link is going to slowly change, though
I've noticed that my accent has been incredibly affected by the Spanish language. While part of this is due to being an ESL teacher and working closely with Spanish speaking women, my nieces and nephews are having the same effect happen to them. Currently they're both in "bilingual" programs, but even if they weren't they would be affected.
Have you noticed any changes such as this? It hasn't happened in the midwest at all - I'm often looked at weirdly because of the way I pronounce things. Especially with names - Katarina, Marisol, Alexander - I say them quickly, almost with a staccato, whereas they're drawn-out here.
I've noticed that my accent has been incredibly affected by the Spanish language. While part of this is due to being an ESL teacher and working closely with Spanish speaking women, my nieces and nephews are having the same effect happen to them. Currently they're both in "bilingual" programs, but even if they weren't they would be affected.
Have you noticed any changes such as this? It hasn't happened in the midwest at all - I'm often looked at weirdly because of the way I pronounce things. Especially with names - Katarina, Marisol, Alexander - I say them quickly, almost with a staccato, whereas they're drawn-out here.
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