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ArchivesOn constructed languages
in reply to a message by Silver
Constructed languages are a fascinating topic. Off-hand I can think of the following cases:
-- Esperanto (with which Nanaea is well versed). This international language -- complete with literature -- was originally meant to bind the world closer together. It is a wonderful (if failed) experiment.
-- Macedonian (not to be confused with Greek, the language of Alexander and his Macedonian Empire). A Slavic language constructed under the orders of Marshall Tito for the Bulgarian-speaking people of (the then) southern Yugoslavia. The language is basically Bulgarian, but includes Serbo-Croatian elements, and served Tito’s two-fold strategy of:
a)Alienating the Bulgarian population of Yugoslavia from Bulgaria (for example, Tito decreed that the suffix “-ski” be added to all Bulgarian names in Yugoslavia – eg. Filev became Filevski – and dubbed such names “Macedonian”), and
b)Creating the a setting for potential Yugoslav expansion in Greek Macedonia (which never materialized).
-- Hebrew: Not really constructed, but “revived”. It is amazing how an ancient language was brought back to life and is used as the official language of a (also revived!) country :)
Can anyone think of another "constructed" language? (please dont refer to Klingon!)
-- Esperanto (with which Nanaea is well versed). This international language -- complete with literature -- was originally meant to bind the world closer together. It is a wonderful (if failed) experiment.
-- Macedonian (not to be confused with Greek, the language of Alexander and his Macedonian Empire). A Slavic language constructed under the orders of Marshall Tito for the Bulgarian-speaking people of (the then) southern Yugoslavia. The language is basically Bulgarian, but includes Serbo-Croatian elements, and served Tito’s two-fold strategy of:
a)Alienating the Bulgarian population of Yugoslavia from Bulgaria (for example, Tito decreed that the suffix “-ski” be added to all Bulgarian names in Yugoslavia – eg. Filev became Filevski – and dubbed such names “Macedonian”), and
b)Creating the a setting for potential Yugoslav expansion in Greek Macedonia (which never materialized).
-- Hebrew: Not really constructed, but “revived”. It is amazing how an ancient language was brought back to life and is used as the official language of a (also revived!) country :)
Can anyone think of another "constructed" language? (please dont refer to Klingon!)
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Replies
I may be wrong here, but I think that ASL (American Sign Language) is a "constructed" language (as usual, please correct me if I am.)
Second, what, exactly, do you mean by "constructed"? Is there any real time limit that you are giving the language? Sorry for this stupid question. :blush:
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
Second, what, exactly, do you mean by "constructed"? Is there any real time limit that you are giving the language? Sorry for this stupid question. :blush:
Phyllis (aka Sidhe Uaine or Gaia Euphoria)
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Good question, I used the term loosely, I guess its a matter of degree. Of the three examples I use, I guess Esperanto is the only genuinely "constructed" out of scratch, using ingredients from other languages. For Hebrew, a better term would be "revived". As far a "Macedonian" is concerned, the language pre-existed as a Bulgarian dialect for ages. In 1944 it was named "Macedonian" out of the blue by Tito's government, and its grammar was codified so as to differente it from Bulgarian.
I agree that sign language is constructed. It is unfortunate that nobody thought of constructing an *international* SL. It is tragic that a user of American SL cannot communicate with a user of, say, Italian SL...
I agree that sign language is constructed. It is unfortunate that nobody thought of constructing an *international* SL. It is tragic that a user of American SL cannot communicate with a user of, say, Italian SL...
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Pavlos:
Didn't you read my reply?? There IS an International Sign Language, called ISL. Go to dww.deafworldweb.org/asl/ and click on More... under International Sign. Y
Didn't you read my reply?? There IS an International Sign Language, called ISL. Go to dww.deafworldweb.org/asl/ and click on More... under International Sign. Y
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Aha :)
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I guess it must be; I never thought about it. I think, though, that ISL (International Sign Language) is even more so than AMSLAN is constructed. :)
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I lived in Yugoslavia for 14 years (untill it fell apart)and I never heard about macedonian being a constructed language! OK, it is true I am from Slovenia, but we learnt some macedonian in elementary school and nobody ever told us this is an artifficial language. So, frankly, I cannot belive this. Where does your information come from?
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PS
> we learnt some macedonian in elementary school and nobody ever told us this is an artifficial language. So, frankly, I cannot belive this
You were fortunate enough to grow in a non-Stalinist socialist republic (as opposed to say N. Korea or Albania!), however I do hope you did not believe everything taught to you during the Tito regime!
...I never believed *everything* they told me in school, as the "cold war" was raging.
> we learnt some macedonian in elementary school and nobody ever told us this is an artifficial language. So, frankly, I cannot belive this
You were fortunate enough to grow in a non-Stalinist socialist republic (as opposed to say N. Korea or Albania!), however I do hope you did not believe everything taught to you during the Tito regime!
...I never believed *everything* they told me in school, as the "cold war" was raging.
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More on "Macedonian" as a constructed language
Hi Nana,
I feel I have opened a can of worms! This is a topic where language has been used to serve rival Balkan politics to a large extent, and most sources are extremely biased to be reliable.
My point is that, prior to 1944 the language now known as “Macedonian” was in fact a Bulgarian dialect. After 1944, the dialect was fused with some Serbo-Croatian grammatical rules to differentiate it from Bulgarian.
Here’s the scoop in a nutshell:
- Bulgarians resent the fact that Tito dubbed Yugoslavia’s Bulgarian minority “Macedonian” so as to alienate them from “mother Bulgaria”.
- The government of FYROM is facing increasing hostility from a substantial separatist Albanian minority. They are much better off economically that either Albania or Bulgaria, and try to cling to their “new macedonian” identity, which was established in 1944.
- Greeks resent the fact that a Bulgarian dialect was dubbed “Macedonian,” as they consider that Macedonian heritage was Greek. And by "Greek", I do not imply anything racial - a Greek, or nore accurately a Hellene, is anyone who adopts Hellenic culture and education. And Alexander the Macedon's teacher was after all Aristotle. Besides, Alexander is a Greek name, he spoke Greek, his father Philip had a Greek name, and his horse had a Greek name (Bucephalus). All antiquities and written records found in Macedonia (northern Greece) are in Greek. Macedonia, itself, is derived from the Hellenic “makednos” meaning “tall, long” (Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon”) In brief, if it walks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck!
Hi Nana,
I feel I have opened a can of worms! This is a topic where language has been used to serve rival Balkan politics to a large extent, and most sources are extremely biased to be reliable.
My point is that, prior to 1944 the language now known as “Macedonian” was in fact a Bulgarian dialect. After 1944, the dialect was fused with some Serbo-Croatian grammatical rules to differentiate it from Bulgarian.
Here’s the scoop in a nutshell:
- Bulgarians resent the fact that Tito dubbed Yugoslavia’s Bulgarian minority “Macedonian” so as to alienate them from “mother Bulgaria”.
- The government of FYROM is facing increasing hostility from a substantial separatist Albanian minority. They are much better off economically that either Albania or Bulgaria, and try to cling to their “new macedonian” identity, which was established in 1944.
- Greeks resent the fact that a Bulgarian dialect was dubbed “Macedonian,” as they consider that Macedonian heritage was Greek. And by "Greek", I do not imply anything racial - a Greek, or nore accurately a Hellene, is anyone who adopts Hellenic culture and education. And Alexander the Macedon's teacher was after all Aristotle. Besides, Alexander is a Greek name, he spoke Greek, his father Philip had a Greek name, and his horse had a Greek name (Bucephalus). All antiquities and written records found in Macedonia (northern Greece) are in Greek. Macedonia, itself, is derived from the Hellenic “makednos” meaning “tall, long” (Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon”) In brief, if it walks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck!
1
hmm, interesting...
I found out some things I didn`t know, but I am stil under the impression, that those information sources are not very reliable.
So I am sort of confused now-what is the truth? I would say it is somewhere in between, as usual :))
As I understand, macedonian language was not pure bulgarian even in the past, but sort of variation of bulgarian language and
it evolved in a separate language under the serbian influence. Isn`t that the way the new languages usually develop?
All in all, it is a fact that the inhabitats of Macedonia or FYROM do not feel bulgarian at all, so why not ackowledge that their
language is a unique one and not just a form of bulgarian. After all, slovenian is not so different fom croatian and they are different
languages. Croatian and Serbian are practically identical from my point of view, but are now recognized as two separate languages,
(in my opinion only because of political reasons).
Too bad politisc has to have its influence in everything. Wouldn`t life be more pleasant, if we didn`t have to worry about everything we
say or write in case we insult somebody :)))
I found out some things I didn`t know, but I am stil under the impression, that those information sources are not very reliable.
So I am sort of confused now-what is the truth? I would say it is somewhere in between, as usual :))
As I understand, macedonian language was not pure bulgarian even in the past, but sort of variation of bulgarian language and
it evolved in a separate language under the serbian influence. Isn`t that the way the new languages usually develop?
All in all, it is a fact that the inhabitats of Macedonia or FYROM do not feel bulgarian at all, so why not ackowledge that their
language is a unique one and not just a form of bulgarian. After all, slovenian is not so different fom croatian and they are different
languages. Croatian and Serbian are practically identical from my point of view, but are now recognized as two separate languages,
(in my opinion only because of political reasons).
Too bad politisc has to have its influence in everything. Wouldn`t life be more pleasant, if we didn`t have to worry about everything we
say or write in case we insult somebody :)))
1
> So I am sort of confused now-what is the truth? I would say it is somewhere in between, as usual :))
Indeed! I agree with you that the dialect in question existed for ages. My point is that nobody called this language "macedonian" before 1944, and that after 1944 its grammar was codified.
> Wouldn`t life be more pleasant, if we didn`t have to worry about everything we say or write in case we insult somebody :)))
I drink to that, Nana :)
Indeed! I agree with you that the dialect in question existed for ages. My point is that nobody called this language "macedonian" before 1944, and that after 1944 its grammar was codified.
> Wouldn`t life be more pleasant, if we didn`t have to worry about everything we say or write in case we insult somebody :)))
I drink to that, Nana :)
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