New Post
Search
Help
ArchivesMarriage names
Okay, something has been bothering me for a long time. I'm going to make up a scenario here. Let's say that there is a girl named Danielle Steel and a guy named Kavalier Clay. Let's pretend that they are getting married. Traditionally, the girl's new name would be Mrs. Kavalier Clay. But is it okay for the guy to be Mr. Danielle Steel? I mean, I don't see why the guys should always get to have their names. Does anyone think that it makes the guy sound less manly? It shouldn't. Let's have some equality here!
Ciao! Zaragoza
Ciao! Zaragoza
1
Replies
imo, it's a respect thing. you love him so you take his name. i see no reason why you shouldn't. of course, it is up to you and him. i'm all for tradtion in that aspect though.
1
It's not as cool as Nanaea's anagram below, but here's my idea:Take the initial consonant sound of each last name and combine it with the rest of the other last name. So you would have two names to chose from: Danielle and Kavalier Stay or Danielle and Kavalier Cleel. Better than the cumbersome hyphenated names anyway!
1
What about the Spanish double surnames? As far as I know, children get both their father's and their mother's surname.If a woman marries, does she keep her two surnames or does she combine one of hers and one of her husband's? (I suppose, she won't take all the four of them...)
Bye,
Barbara
Bye,
Barbara
1
An Anagrammatical Solution
I think that Kavalier Clay and Danielle Steel should create a new surname for themselves, by anagramming their two, existing surnames together and taking the longest word which emerges from the combining of their surnames' letters. Thereby bringing forth into the world:
Mr. Kavalier Catseye and Mrs. Danielle Catseye.
This newly-created surname would be used for social purposes and for family cohesiveness (as it would be passed on to any children born to them). I would suggest that they continue to use their original names for professional purposes, if either of them has already established a career for themselves prior to marriage.
Another reason for *both* of them changing their names… "Catseye" as a surname sounds way cooler than either Clay or Steel, anyway.
-- Nanaea
I think that Kavalier Clay and Danielle Steel should create a new surname for themselves, by anagramming their two, existing surnames together and taking the longest word which emerges from the combining of their surnames' letters. Thereby bringing forth into the world:
Mr. Kavalier Catseye and Mrs. Danielle Catseye.
This newly-created surname would be used for social purposes and for family cohesiveness (as it would be passed on to any children born to them). I would suggest that they continue to use their original names for professional purposes, if either of them has already established a career for themselves prior to marriage.
Another reason for *both* of them changing their names… "Catseye" as a surname sounds way cooler than either Clay or Steel, anyway.
-- Nanaea
1
Good questions! I'm not a lawyer, but I think in many US states you can use any last name you want to as long as there's no intent to defraud anyone (banks, credit card companies, employers) by doing so.
Of course, the federal and local governments would probably have some objections to a man's simply adopting (for all purposes) his wife's last name, since it's VERY uncommon and we're not QUITE yet to the Fourth Reich practice of identifying everyone primarily by Social Security Number. In the official view, tho, it would play hell with tax rolls and jury rolls if they allowed it to happen.
In the case of two-name hyphenations, which I personally find unattractive and cumbersome, you may even have to take legal steps to get both parties' last names legally changed to the joint one. I've never asked anyone who'd adopted such a name (couldn't stop laughing).
Does a hyphenated last name (his and wife's) make a man less manly? No, but most other men would consider him so, right or wrong.
My personal opinion on the whole surname matter? I think wives should be encouraged to retain their birth surnames rather than subjugate their own identity, even symbolically, to their husband's. It would be no more confusing than the surname mess we have already in the US due to divorces. I've said here before that by the mid-90s, my two kids had exactly ONE close friend between them who had the same surname as the mother, due to divorce and re-marriage.
My wife of 28 years uses my last name and always has since our marriage, altho I encouraged her to do "whatever she wanted" at the time. Too rooted in tradition, I guess. (My 20 year old daughter may do differently when the time comes.)
- Da.
Of course, the federal and local governments would probably have some objections to a man's simply adopting (for all purposes) his wife's last name, since it's VERY uncommon and we're not QUITE yet to the Fourth Reich practice of identifying everyone primarily by Social Security Number. In the official view, tho, it would play hell with tax rolls and jury rolls if they allowed it to happen.
In the case of two-name hyphenations, which I personally find unattractive and cumbersome, you may even have to take legal steps to get both parties' last names legally changed to the joint one. I've never asked anyone who'd adopted such a name (couldn't stop laughing).
Does a hyphenated last name (his and wife's) make a man less manly? No, but most other men would consider him so, right or wrong.
My personal opinion on the whole surname matter? I think wives should be encouraged to retain their birth surnames rather than subjugate their own identity, even symbolically, to their husband's. It would be no more confusing than the surname mess we have already in the US due to divorces. I've said here before that by the mid-90s, my two kids had exactly ONE close friend between them who had the same surname as the mother, due to divorce and re-marriage.
My wife of 28 years uses my last name and always has since our marriage, altho I encouraged her to do "whatever she wanted" at the time. Too rooted in tradition, I guess. (My 20 year old daughter may do differently when the time comes.)
- Da.
1
Thanks, Daividh, that was interesting.
Just to make sure - in Scandinavia and Germany it's still the most common way that both partners take over the husband's surname after their marriage (but they NEVER use the husband's first name when introducing a women - it's always Frau Sarah Maier and never Frau Peter Maier).
Regards, Satu
Just to make sure - in Scandinavia and Germany it's still the most common way that both partners take over the husband's surname after their marriage (but they NEVER use the husband's first name when introducing a women - it's always Frau Sarah Maier and never Frau Peter Maier).
Regards, Satu
1
Referring to a woman in the US as "Mrs. Peter Smith" is traditionally correct here for formal written correspondence. The rule always was, once her husband dies or she divorces then she's "Mrs. Mary Smith."
The spoken address form of "Mrs. Peter Smith" was much more prevalent in the Southern US than elsewhere. I remember some years back when a very prominent lady in South Carolina society, Mrs. Henry Reynolds, was referred to by nearly everyone - even when speaking directly to her - as "Miz Henry." I don't recall her first name, but presumably only her family and VERY close friends might have dared to use it.
What are the more "liberated" forms of address now in Germany? Do you use anything for women that doesn't denote a mariage status, like "Ms." is used over here?
The spoken address form of "Mrs. Peter Smith" was much more prevalent in the Southern US than elsewhere. I remember some years back when a very prominent lady in South Carolina society, Mrs. Henry Reynolds, was referred to by nearly everyone - even when speaking directly to her - as "Miz Henry." I don't recall her first name, but presumably only her family and VERY close friends might have dared to use it.
What are the more "liberated" forms of address now in Germany? Do you use anything for women that doesn't denote a mariage status, like "Ms." is used over here?
1
Hi Daividh,
thanks again for the information!
Earlier there were two different titles for a woman in Germany, either "Frau" for a married woman or "Fräulein" (little Mrs) for an unmarried woman. On the other hand there was just "Herr" for a married or unmarried man. Nowadays "Fräulein" isn't used anymore. Every woman, married or not, gets the title "Frau".
Sometimes you can hear older people still use "Fräulein" because they are used to it, but it's really out of official use now.
Regards, Satu
thanks again for the information!
Earlier there were two different titles for a woman in Germany, either "Frau" for a married woman or "Fräulein" (little Mrs) for an unmarried woman. On the other hand there was just "Herr" for a married or unmarried man. Nowadays "Fräulein" isn't used anymore. Every woman, married or not, gets the title "Frau".
Sometimes you can hear older people still use "Fräulein" because they are used to it, but it's really out of official use now.
Regards, Satu
1
Most interesting - thank you!
Two questions: first, when does one stop being a Madchen and become a Frau (can't do umlauts - sorry); and second, is it possible now to refer to a horizontally and vertically challenged married woman as ein Fraulein?
Three, actually! How did this come about - was it a spontaneous feeling among the public that if men were not distinguished by forms of address nor should women be, or was there pressure from women's lib groups, or what? (I'm dealing with a document which keeps on referring to a child undergoing testing as "he", which would have passed unremarked until about 25 years ago but now sounds dreadful; this was the result of the women's movement I believe. How is that done in German - can and do people just use the neuter form for a child?)
Two questions: first, when does one stop being a Madchen and become a Frau (can't do umlauts - sorry); and second, is it possible now to refer to a horizontally and vertically challenged married woman as ein Fraulein?
Three, actually! How did this come about - was it a spontaneous feeling among the public that if men were not distinguished by forms of address nor should women be, or was there pressure from women's lib groups, or what? (I'm dealing with a document which keeps on referring to a child undergoing testing as "he", which would have passed unremarked until about 25 years ago but now sounds dreadful; this was the result of the women's movement I believe. How is that done in German - can and do people just use the neuter form for a child?)
1
@Anneza
I think, the use of "Frau" for every woman came along with the women's movement in the 1970s, just as the use of male and female forms in addressing large groups ("Liebe Wählerinnen und Wähler" etc.). Unfortunately, there was no "spontaneous feeling among the public" to treat men and women equally, so I presume there was pressure from the women's lib. Today it's considered a question of "politcal correctness" - which came from America, I think.
I think, the use of "Frau" for every woman came along with the women's movement in the 1970s, just as the use of male and female forms in addressing large groups ("Liebe Wählerinnen und Wähler" etc.). Unfortunately, there was no "spontaneous feeling among the public" to treat men and women equally, so I presume there was pressure from the women's lib. Today it's considered a question of "politcal correctness" - which came from America, I think.
1
@ Anneza
Hi Anneza,
well, I'll try to answer your questions :-)
1) There's no real "borderline" between Mädchen and Frau. Women can be called Mädchen for quite a long time even when they are grown up. Young women in a sports team are often called Mädchen instead of Damen or Frauen even when they are around 30 years old. On the other hand as soon as they have finished school and begin to work (sometimes at the early age of 16) you would officially call her Frau. Very often there is used a kind of mixture in addressing young women, especially when they are younger than 20: They are addressed by their first name and the formal form "Sie" instead of "du". Men are addressed in the same way of course.
2) I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I got your second question right... Anyway - Fräulein isn't used anymore. Sometimes, when you speak to a very little girl, you would say Fräulein to her when you are angry with her, like "Jetzt ist aber genug, mein Fräulein!!!" (That's enough now, lady!). Many years ago a waitress or a shop assistant was usually addressed as Fräulein. And some older people still do so sometimes, but that sounds really unfriendly. But these are the only situations when it's used nowadays.
3) I believe that it was like a spontaneous feeling in the public. Equal rights of women are a very important item in Germany. If there were just a few extreme women lib groups insisting to change things like that, it wouldn't work at all.
4) A child, whose sex isn't known, is named "es" (it) which is neutral. That's because "das Kind" (child) is a neuter word in German. A "Junge" (boy) is always named "er" (he) because "der Junge" is masculine. "Das Mädchen" (girl) is neuter, but you can say "es" (it) or "sie" (she) when talking about her. Grammatically correct is "es" of course, but colloquially "sie" is used even more often.
Well, I hope I could help you?
Regards, Satu
Hi Anneza,
well, I'll try to answer your questions :-)
1) There's no real "borderline" between Mädchen and Frau. Women can be called Mädchen for quite a long time even when they are grown up. Young women in a sports team are often called Mädchen instead of Damen or Frauen even when they are around 30 years old. On the other hand as soon as they have finished school and begin to work (sometimes at the early age of 16) you would officially call her Frau. Very often there is used a kind of mixture in addressing young women, especially when they are younger than 20: They are addressed by their first name and the formal form "Sie" instead of "du". Men are addressed in the same way of course.
2) I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I got your second question right... Anyway - Fräulein isn't used anymore. Sometimes, when you speak to a very little girl, you would say Fräulein to her when you are angry with her, like "Jetzt ist aber genug, mein Fräulein!!!" (That's enough now, lady!). Many years ago a waitress or a shop assistant was usually addressed as Fräulein. And some older people still do so sometimes, but that sounds really unfriendly. But these are the only situations when it's used nowadays.
3) I believe that it was like a spontaneous feeling in the public. Equal rights of women are a very important item in Germany. If there were just a few extreme women lib groups insisting to change things like that, it wouldn't work at all.
4) A child, whose sex isn't known, is named "es" (it) which is neutral. That's because "das Kind" (child) is a neuter word in German. A "Junge" (boy) is always named "er" (he) because "der Junge" is masculine. "Das Mädchen" (girl) is neuter, but you can say "es" (it) or "sie" (she) when talking about her. Grammatically correct is "es" of course, but colloquially "sie" is used even more often.
Well, I hope I could help you?
Regards, Satu
1
Yikes! Things DO change when you're away from a place for 30 years! I'd sound completely "antediluvianische" if I went back to Germany and tried to babble in public!
- Da.
- Da.
1
umm..when my mom was getting married to my dad, she wanted to hyphenate their names or have hers or keep hers. but my dad wouldn't do that because he's what my mom calls "old-fashioned". but i think if they go to the woman's last name, the guys would be switched. but i haven't thought about it much. but yeah i totally agree. my mom hates it when bills come because she pays them and does all the stuff that comes with it, and its addressed to my dad!!! even school stuff like atop of schuleds it'll have my dad's name, and my mom payed the fees. (parent's arn't divorced).
but if they did keep my mom's last name my real name wouldn't sound to good. too many m's!!!!
but if they did keep my mom's last name my real name wouldn't sound to good. too many m's!!!!
1
Hi Zaragoza,
you are absolutely right! This way to call a woman "Mrs. PETER Smith" sounds extremely old fashioned and unfair (at least to someone living in Northern Europe). I remember that I was very surprised when I first heard about it (I guess it was in an American movie...).
Here (I can only speak for Scandinavia and Germany) the married couple can decide which surname they would like to keep.
Maria Nilsson and Per Jansson can be
1) Maria & Åke Nilsson
2) Maria & Åke Jansson
3) Maria Nilsson & Åke Jansson
after their marriage. But you won't ever call Maria "fru Åke Nilsson", that would sound as crazy as "herr Maria Jansson".
There's even the possibility of double names (which I don't like at all by the way)
Maria Schmidt and Paul Müller can be
1) Maria Müller-Schmidt & Paul Müller
2) Maria Schmidt & Paul Schmidt-Müller
Once, in Germany, I heard someone call a lady "Frau Dr. Wegner" even though it was not her title but her husband's. But that's very old fashioned and not common nowadays.
Are there any other traditions or customs in other countries? Would be interesting!
Regards, Satu
you are absolutely right! This way to call a woman "Mrs. PETER Smith" sounds extremely old fashioned and unfair (at least to someone living in Northern Europe). I remember that I was very surprised when I first heard about it (I guess it was in an American movie...).
Here (I can only speak for Scandinavia and Germany) the married couple can decide which surname they would like to keep.
Maria Nilsson and Per Jansson can be
1) Maria & Åke Nilsson
2) Maria & Åke Jansson
3) Maria Nilsson & Åke Jansson
after their marriage. But you won't ever call Maria "fru Åke Nilsson", that would sound as crazy as "herr Maria Jansson".
There's even the possibility of double names (which I don't like at all by the way)
Maria Schmidt and Paul Müller can be
1) Maria Müller-Schmidt & Paul Müller
2) Maria Schmidt & Paul Schmidt-Müller
Once, in Germany, I heard someone call a lady "Frau Dr. Wegner" even though it was not her title but her husband's. But that's very old fashioned and not common nowadays.
Are there any other traditions or customs in other countries? Would be interesting!
Regards, Satu
1
I understand the bit about the lastnames, but why would _Per_ become _Åke_ after the marriage?
1
:-DDD
Sorry!!!!! My mistake! Would get too confusing to change first names, too!!
Satu
Sorry!!!!! My mistake! Would get too confusing to change first names, too!!
Satu
1
I think it's interesting how in Holland at fast food places, like McDonald's, the workers' name tags don't just say their first names but instead it says "Herr" or "Frau" so and so!!
1
Are you sure you're speaking about Holland here?
Because I live in Holland and in all the McDonald's restaurants that I've been to, there was always ONLY the first name on the name tags. There's no mention of "Mr." or "Mrs." there.
Seeing that you said that the name tags say "Herr" and "Frau", you must be speaking about Germany. In Dutch, "Herr" is 'meneer' and "Frau" is 'mevrouw.'
Regards,
Lu
Because I live in Holland and in all the McDonald's restaurants that I've been to, there was always ONLY the first name on the name tags. There's no mention of "Mr." or "Mrs." there.
Seeing that you said that the name tags say "Herr" and "Frau", you must be speaking about Germany. In Dutch, "Herr" is 'meneer' and "Frau" is 'mevrouw.'
Regards,
Lu
1
Could be Germany, lol, I was there last summer too.
1
Duh! I just said that it's German in my previous message! ;-)
1
i was agreeing with you!!! i forgot to type that!!!:)
1
Oh, okay then! :-))
1
Herr & Frau
Yes, it must have been in Germany where you saw „Herr“ and „Frau“ plus surname on a name plate. In Germany (as well as in France) you don’t use a foreign person’s first name. People think it’s unrespectful and unfair to call a woman named Lisa Müller “Lisa” when she’s a waitress and “Frau Müller” when she’s a businesswoman.
The trend though is that younger people more often use each other’s first names even though they don’t know each other, but they don’t make any differences (occupation, education etc.).
Regards, Satu
Yes, it must have been in Germany where you saw „Herr“ and „Frau“ plus surname on a name plate. In Germany (as well as in France) you don’t use a foreign person’s first name. People think it’s unrespectful and unfair to call a woman named Lisa Müller “Lisa” when she’s a waitress and “Frau Müller” when she’s a businesswoman.
The trend though is that younger people more often use each other’s first names even though they don’t know each other, but they don’t make any differences (occupation, education etc.).
Regards, Satu
1